Podcast Episode 13

Episode 013 31 min

Paul Nguyen, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Permiso Security, On Innovating Security Postures

with Paul Nguyen · Permiso Security

0:00 / 31:00

Also on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Podbean, Player FM

Episode 13 of The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley, published February 3, 2022. Host Jon McLachlan talks with Paul Nguyen, co-founder and co-CEO of Permiso Security, two days after Permiso came out of stealth. Paul explains why cloud security is history repeating itself, how he and Jason Martin picked cloud identity detection and response, why trust is the company's first pillar, how relationships make your own luck, why a no goes both ways with customers, and why he won't sell a product before it's ready.

Episode notes

Join us for an engaging episode of a YSecurity.io production featuring Paul Nguyen, the Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Permiso Security. Paul brings a wealth of knowledge and innovative insights from his journey in the cybersecurity industry, particularly in enhancing security posture and protecting against evolving threats.

In this conversation, Paul shares the story behind founding Permiso Security, highlighting the challenges and opportunities that led to the creation of a company dedicated to redefining how businesses approach their cybersecurity strategies. With a focus on leveraging cutting-edge technologies and methodologies, Paul discusses Permiso Security's mission to empower organizations with comprehensive insights and controls to navigate the complex digital landscape securely.

Listeners will dive into the nuances of building a cybersecurity startup, from identifying market needs to developing solutions that address the sophisticated tactics employed by modern threat actors. Paul also sheds light on the importance of fostering a culture of security awareness and resilience, emphasizing the role of leadership in cultivating environments where security is prioritized and integrated into every aspect of business operations.

Moreover, Paul offers his perspective on the future of cybersecurity, including emerging trends and how companies can stay ahead of threats by adopting proactive and intelligence-driven security measures. His insights provide valuable guidance for businesses of all sizes looking to enhance their security posture in an increasingly interconnected world.

Tune into this YSecurity.io production for a fascinating discussion with Paul Nguyen. Whether you're a cybersecurity professional, business leader, or tech enthusiast, this episode offers a deep dive into the strategies and innovations shaping the future of security. Join us as we explore the journey of Permiso Security and the vision driving its mission to protect and empower the digital enterprise.

Hosted by Jon McLachlan — co-founder of YSecurity.

The deep dive

History repeats in the cloud

Paul Nguyen, co-founder and co-CEO of Permiso Security, with Jon on cloud security as history repeating itself, a market to pioneer, identity paired with detection and response, two co-CEOs without an ego, a CISO job with no budget, luck you make through people, the day two founders decided to quit, a no that goes both ways, products you don't sell before they're ready, and a culture of trust and transparency.

Episode 13 of The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley aired on February 3, 2022, with Jon McLachlan hosting. The guest was Paul Nguyen, co-founder and co-CEO of Permiso Security (Podbean, Apple Podcasts, Spotify). The episode is called “Paul Nguyen, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Permiso Security, On Innovating Security Postures.” On the tape, Paul says Permiso launched two days earlier. Permiso’s launch post is dated January 18, 2022 (Permiso).

Paul’s case for the company fits in one line. Cloud security, he said, is the data center years all over again.

“what we’re seeing in the cloud security market is basically just history repeating itself.”

Paul Nguyen, at 1:38

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 1:33
About 35 seconds: Paul on cloud security as history repeating itself. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

This page follows the conversation in order: a section for each part of it, sixteen figures, thirteen clips from the tape, a LinkedIn post, a talk on YouTube, the full transcript, and five tools: a quiz, a scorecard for whether your cloud is repeating history, a calculator for what a wrong-fit yes costs, a timeline, and a to-do list. Where the decodes of the tape disagree on a word, the transcript puts its best guess in brackets, and the page doesn’t quote or retell those words.

Two co-CEOs

Jon opened with Paul’s title. Paul said the co-CEO part is always the fun part, and people ask why. He and his co-founder had each been a CEO before, and this time both tried not to be one. Paul tries to fire himself as co-CEO every day and make Jason the CEO, he said, and Jason doesn’t want that.

Jon pointed out that Permiso isn’t Paul’s first startup, and that he studied at Carnegie Mellon. Paul said he has been in the industry for almost two decades. His LinkedIn lists a master’s in information technology management from Carnegie Mellon, with a focus on information security, and a bachelor’s in business administration from its Tepper School of Business. Before Permiso, it lists FireEye, Invotas, Knowledge Consulting Group, Neohapsis, Deloitte, and a CISO role at the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency (LinkedIn). Permiso’s about page adds that he started as a white hat hacker at @stake (Permiso).

A timeline. @stake: white hat hacker, where Permiso's about page starts his career. 2006: CISO, director of information assurance at the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency. 2009: Knowledge Consulting Group, vice president of cyber solutions, after Deloitte and Neohapsis. June 2013: Invotas, CEO and founder, security automation and orchestration. February 2016: FireEye, after FireEye bought Invotas, through to senior vice president of product strategy and product management. August 2019, filled: Permiso, co-founder and co-CEO, with Jason Martin.
Paul's path to Permiso. Sources: his LinkedIn, Permiso's about page and the episode.

History repeating itself

Jon asked what Permiso does. Paul started with the market. When data centers were new, he said, people stood up servers and firewalls and did things that were probably not the most secure. They didn’t know any better. People were unpacking firewalls, he said, and:

“setting them up with default credentials and leaving them wide open for attackers”

Paul Nguyen, at 2:02

He doesn’t blame the people who did it. It happened, he said:

“not because of negligence, but just because of the learning curve you have to go through”

Paul Nguyen, at 2:09

Then came the order of events. Compliance is the start of security, in his telling, and the minimum you have to do. Real security started when attackers began to steal data and take systems down, and detection and response products came along to fill that gap. Cloud, he said, is going through the same steps.

Four boxes joined by arrows. New technology: servers and firewalls. Defaults, dashed: left wide open. Compliance: the minimum. Detection, filled: and response. Below, a list. Filled: cloud is going through the same steps, Paul said. It isn't negligence. It's the learning curve of every new technology. Real security started when attackers stole data and took systems down.
The data center order of events, and cloud repeating it. Source: the episode.

Permiso’s launch post makes the same point. After 20 years in security, Paul wrote, cloud felt like “a bit of déjà vu” (Permiso).

Ahead of today’s problem

Paul and his co-founder wanted a problem that wasn’t today’s.

“We want to be ahead of it and have some fun pioneering.”

Paul Nguyen, at 2:41

He had done it before. His previous startup was one of the first security orchestration and automation companies, he said, and he got hooked on proving to people that a new market is a real one. His LinkedIn lists that startup as Invotas, “Pioneering the space for Security Automation and Orchestration,” from June 2013 to February 2016 (LinkedIn). Wikipedia lists FireEye’s purchase of Invotas, an IT security automation company, after it bought iSIGHT Partners in January 2016 (Wikipedia). Tools in that category let a security team respond to some incidents automatically (Wikipedia).

In cloud, Paul saw a gap of the same kind, and a reason it was still early:

“there’s not a ton of attacks happening yet in cloud.”

Paul Nguyen, at 3:05

Two cards side by side. Invotas, June 2013: one of the first security orchestration and automation companies, Paul said. FireEye bought it. Permiso, August 2019, filled: detection for cloud identities, while there weren't many attacks in cloud yet. Then: "We want to be ahead of it and have some fun pioneering." Paul, at 2:41.
Two markets Paul set out to pioneer. Sources: the episode, his LinkedIn and Wikipedia.

Identity, detection and response

The direction came from Jason Chan, Paul said, one of Permiso’s first angel investors and a friend of 20 years. Paul introduced him as head of security at Netflix, and as:

“the one that really set us on this path of looking at identity.”

Paul Nguyen, at 3:26

So they paired identity with detection and response, he said. After 200 customer conversations, Paul said, they knew they had it, and cloud identity detection and response became the core. Jon checked the number. The conversations took about 18 months, Paul said.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 3:11
About 30 seconds: Paul on how Permiso landed on identity. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

Permiso’s launch post calls the product “the first of its kind in cloud identity detection and response.” It counts hundreds of customer interviews and more than 10 co-development customers in the year before launch (Permiso). Permiso’s about page quotes Jason Chan, former VP of information security at Netflix: “Identity is the silver bullet in the cloud.” (Permiso).

Wikipedia describes identity threat detection and response as a discipline that protects identity infrastructure from attacks. It’s especially relevant across several clouds, Wikipedia adds, because of the gaps between each provider’s identity and access systems (Wikipedia).

Three boxes joined by arrows. Jason Chan: pointed them at identity. 200 conversations: over about 18 months. The core, filled: cloud identity detection. Below, a list. Permiso's launch post: hundreds of customer interviews, and more than 10 co-development customers in the year before launch. Jason Chan, former VP of information security at Netflix, on Permiso's about page, calls identity the silver bullet in the cloud. Then: "the one that really set us on this path of looking at identity." Paul, at 3:26.
How Permiso picked its problem. Sources: the episode and Permiso's launch post.

Six degrees of Kevin Bacon

A long career in this industry buys reach, Paul said:

“you pretty much have six degrees of Kevin Bacon to anyone that you want to talk to, right?”

Paul Nguyen, at 3:53

Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon is a parlor game that links an actor to Kevin Bacon through the films they appeared in, on the idea that anyone in Hollywood is within six steps of him (Wikipedia). Investors claim access too, Paul said, and he and Jason had it between them. Jason runs a hacker conference in Hawaii called Shakacon, he said. Permiso’s about page lists Jason Martin, Paul’s co-founder, as its organizer (Permiso).

They used that community to survey the industry. They asked people about their problems, and what they would solve if they could solve anything by magic.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 3:49
About 35 seconds: Paul on surveying the industry. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Three boxes joined by arrows. A long career: six degrees to anyone. A community: including Shakacon. One question, filled: what would you solve?
The question Paul and Jason put to their network. Source: the episode.

Three to five years out

Paul ran product at FireEye, which he called almost a billion-dollar business, and Jason ran the engineering side. Part of Paul’s job was corporate development: buying companies to fill out the portfolio. That meant watching where every company was positioned.

“Because I needed to look three to five years out”

Paul Nguyen, at 4:50

That view informed what became Permiso, he said. It took almost two years to come out of stealth, and they were deliberate about where to go, what to build and whom to tell.

Permiso’s launch post says Paul and Jason “each joined FireEye separately via acquisitions” of their previous companies, Invotas and Secure DNA. It names Paul as FireEye’s senior vice president of product strategy and product management, and Jason as executive vice president of global engineering and security products (Permiso). Paul’s LinkedIn dates Permiso from August 2019 (LinkedIn).

A timeline. FireEye: product and engineering. Paul ran product, Jason ran engineering, and Paul's job included buying companies. August 2019: Permiso, co-founded by Paul and Jason, who each came to FireEye through an acquisition. Stealth, dashed: almost two years, purposeful about what to build and whom to tell. January 2022, filled: launch, out of stealth with a $10 million seed round led by Point72 Ventures. Then: "Because I needed to look three to five years out" Paul, at 4:50.
From FireEye to Permiso's launch. Sources: the episode, Permiso's launch post and Paul's LinkedIn.

Trust, and no ego

Jason Martin is Paul’s co-founder and co-CEO. Paul called him the better-looking and smarter one, and said they had worked together for about six years. Jon said trust between co-founders matters a lot. Paul agreed: trust was the company’s number one pillar.

“And the good thing is, neither of us have an ego.”

Paul Nguyen, at 6:12

Neither needs to be CEO, he said, and he has nothing to prove past building something interesting with people he wants to work with every day. That’s the part of startups he gets hooked on: a culture built from the ground up. A big company is a little too big of a machine for him, with its politics and bureaucracy. Jon, who has worked at both, said the grass is always greener on the other side.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 6:05
About 30 seconds: Paul on joining forces with Jason. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Three cards side by side. Trust, filled: the company's number one pillar. They had worked together for about six years. No ego: neither needs to be CEO, and Paul has nothing to prove. Balance: in the valleys, they check that they're still on the right path. Then: "he has his days, I have my days, and then we just balance each other and we're good." Paul, at 18:39.
Two co-CEOs, as Paul described them. Source: the episode.

The kid who took things apart

Jon asked whether a story from Paul’s childhood shaped who he is. Paul said he was always the kid who took things apart to see how they worked. He destroyed most of his toys, he said, and called it an engineer’s mentality: he likes to build stuff. He always had a natural curiosity about how things worked, and he learned to program games on a Commodore 64.

He planned to be an investment banker, he said. Then he got exposed to security at Carnegie Mellon, home of a computer emergency response team. Wikipedia calls the CERT Coordination Center the first organization of its kind, set up in Pittsburgh in November 1988 at DARPA’s direction after the Morris worm (Wikipedia). Jon said Carnegie Mellon is one of the best universities out there for computer science and security.

A CISO without a budget

Security was still nascent and emerging, Paul said, and it took over a decade before people cared. He was a CISO somewhere in between.

“being a CISO at the time was not enjoyable, because you basically couldn’t get any budget, and you couldn’t get anything done without begging and pleading.”

Paul Nguyen, at 9:15

Now the conference takes up the whole Moscone Center and then some, he said, and it wasn’t like that back then. The RSA Conference started in 1991 as a small cryptography conference (Wikipedia). Paul’s LinkedIn lists his CISO role, as director of information assurance at the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency, from 2006 to 2007 (LinkedIn).

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 9:00
About 35 seconds: Paul on being a CISO before security had budgets. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Two cards side by side. Then: security was nascent. A CISO couldn't get budget, and got things done by begging and pleading. Now, filled: the conference fills the whole Moscone Center and then some. Below, a list. The RSA Conference started in 1991 as a small cryptography conference. It took over a decade before people cared about security, Paul said.
Security then and now, as Paul told it. Sources: the episode and Wikipedia.

Manufacture luck

Jon asked for one truth most people miss. Paul’s answer was relationships. Engineers tend to shy away from them, he said. He learned early from his first manager, who seemed to know everybody.

“that’s where you get to manufacture luck”

Paul Nguyen, at 10:52

The reason he sold his last company, he said, was that he happened to know the CEO and president of FireEye when they were looking for a company. What doesn’t work, in his telling, is calling someone five years after you last talked because you need something.

“So you have to actually invest in these relationships and help people along the way.”

Paul Nguyen, at 11:27

Jon put it in one line:

“It’s not about stuff, it’s not about the products, it’s about the people.”

Jon McLachlan, at 11:47

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 11:00
About 25 seconds: Paul on manufacturing luck. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Two cards side by side. What works, filled: invest in people early and help them along the way. Things come back around. What doesn't: calling someone five years after you last talked, because you need something. Below: he sold his last company because he happened to know FireEye's CEO and president when they were looking. Then: "that's where you get to manufacture luck" Paul, at 10:52.
Manufactured luck, as Paul described it. Source: the episode.

Love people, use things

Jon brought up a book by the Minimalists with the whole message in its title: Love People, Use Things, Because the Opposite Never Works. You can summarize the book with the title, he said, and you don’t have to buy it. Wikipedia lists Love People, Use Things (2021) among the work of the Minimalists, Joshua Fields Millburn and Ryan Nicodemus (Wikipedia). Jon said he learned that lesson much later in his career than Paul did.

Show them the bad parts

Mentorship is big for Paul. With every new hire, he said, he and Jason offer what they learned from their own mistakes.

“the last thing we want to do is have you make the same mistake.”

Paul Nguyen, at 12:38

So they share more than most founders would, he said, including the parts that aren’t glitz and glamour.

“Like, sometimes you have to expose the bad parts.”

Paul Nguyen, at 12:56

Jon agreed that people learn from those parts. Then they ask to learn things outside their job, Paul said, like marketing. He and Jason also angel invest, and they mentor strong technical founders on the market side. Paul’s LinkedIn lists an investment in Truffle Security from January 2022 (LinkedIn). He wants to build the next set of entrepreneurs, he said, and would love to see every employee start a company. He still goes to his own mentors in times of crisis.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 12:27
About 30 seconds: Paul on sharing the bad parts. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
A numbered list. 1: the mistakes they made, so the next person doesn't repeat them. 2: more than most founders would share, glitz and glamour aside. 3: help with skills outside the job, like marketing. 4: the goal, every employee could start a company one day. Then: "Like, sometimes you have to expose the bad parts." Paul, at 12:56.
What Paul and Jason share with the people they hire. Source: the episode.

The day they decided

Jon asked for the best day at Permiso so far. The best day was when they started it, Paul said. Jon asked what started meant: the idea, meeting a co-founder, incorporating or funding. Paul named the day he flew out to see Jason. They spent six hours on it, he said, and finally said, okay, this is it: they would both quit.

“it’s big, because you take that leap.”

Jon McLachlan, at 15:09

Jon brought up the security of a steady paycheck, the RSUs and the options. Paul said they had done well before, and he could have ridden out a job for a long time. Being repeat founders made it less of a risk, he said, but still a risk. They put everything into the business and bootstrapped it themselves.

“And we wanted to be on our own terms and make our own mistakes.”

Paul Nguyen, at 15:58

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 15:29
About 20 seconds: Paul on taking the leap. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Four boxes joined by arrows. Six hours: this is it. Both quit: their day jobs. Bootstrapped: with their own money. The launch, filled: January 18, 2022.
The best day and the second-best day. Sources: the episode and Permiso's launch post.

The second-best day

The second-best day was the launch, Paul said, when you get to tell everyone what you’re doing and find out whether it gets massive fanfare. He’s much more comfortable and even keel than he was back then, when it was super stressful. A repeat founder, he said, knows how to deal with the emotional side.

Jon said Paul had been there, done that and got the t-shirt. Paul said they were both at big companies and did the executive thing. He isn’t a big company person, he said, but FireEye was a good education. Jon said Paul kept his learning hat on: humble and hungry.

Nine times out of ten

Jon asked about the worst day. There isn’t one day, Paul said, but there are peaks and valleys. Rejection still stings, even when you’re used to it, and a big customer can turn out not to be one. Over the years, he said, he learned that you hear no far more often than yes. In a market you’re pioneering, it’s no nine times out of ten. Nobody can have more conviction about it than you, he said, so make small corrections and stay the course.

That’s where a co-CEO helps, he said. They check with each other that they’re still on the right path.

“he has his days, I have my days, and then we just balance each other and we’re good.”

Paul Nguyen, at 18:39

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 17:59
About 30 seconds: Paul on how often a founder hears no. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Three cards side by side. Conviction, filled: nobody believes in it more than you. Stay the course. Small corrections: adjust course a little at a time, and keep going. A co-CEO: one of you has a bad day, and the other balances it.
What carries a founder through the noes. Source: the episode.

No goes both ways

Jon said he envies founders who hear a clear no. Discussions often drag on, he said, and a no is information: you can move on to the next customer.

Paul said honesty gets you an answer. It may not be a good fit, and nobody’s time should be wasted. He called himself the more direct of the two co-founders, and Jason the nicer one.

“you could be firm without being aggressive.”

Jon McLachlan, at 20:09

Time is the most precious thing he has, Paul said. He has told customers he’ll come down himself to make sure a deal is good for them, and that he’ll tell them when it isn’t good for Permiso.

“there are such things as bad customers.”

Paul Nguyen, at 20:43

Not bad in behavior, he said: just not a fit for where he wants the company to be. When a customer’s requirements are orthogonal to where Permiso wants to go, somebody else may solve that problem.

“you start going down tangents that take you off course.”

Paul Nguyen, at 21:29

Six to nine months and a lot of engineering effort can go to the tangent, he said. He tells first-time founders to have conviction and be decisive, because of what happens when you get pulled in 50 different directions:

“you’ll end up dying by a thousand cuts”

Paul Nguyen, at 21:52

Jon summed it up.

“I didn’t think of it that way: no, being a two-way street.”

Jon McLachlan, at 22:03

Paul agreed: he looks at it as a two-way street.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 21:22
About 35 seconds: Paul on saying no to a customer. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Two cards side by side. From the customer: a clear no is information, Jon said. You can move on to the next customer. To the customer, filled: when requirements are orthogonal to where you're going, say no. Somebody else may solve it. Below: a wrong-fit yes can cost six to nine months and a lot of engineering effort, Paul said. Then: "there are such things as bad customers." Paul, at 20:43.
A no from the customer, and a no to the customer. Source: the episode.

The calculator further down puts numbers on a wrong-fit yes.

Success without an exit

Jon asked what success looks like for Permiso. Most people measure it by an IPO or an exit, Paul said, and he doesn’t need one.

“I’m not looking for a specific outcome of, I need to sell this thing by X date, or I need to IPO.”

Paul Nguyen, at 23:30

Five years out, he said, success is still having fun, with happy customers, happy employees and a sustainable business. He called himself a walking CEO, the annoying one who walks to people’s desks to ask what they’re working on. Jon said Paul just wants to be involved.

“It’s more about enjoying the experience”

Paul Nguyen, at 23:43

Hiring after the seed

Jon congratulated Paul on the $10 million seed round. Permiso’s launch post says Point72 Ventures led it, with Foundation Capital, Work-Bench, 11.2 Capital and Rain Capital, and angels including Jason Chan (Permiso).

“We’re hiring like crazy on the engineering side.”

Paul Nguyen, at 24:36

It’s still early, Paul said. The first priority is what existing customers have asked for, and the partners who give Permiso their time. The launch got coverage in Dark Reading, VentureBeat, TechCrunch and SecurityWeek, he said, and brought in people who wanted to work with them. He hoped to triple the engineering team within a couple of months. Jason once had 1,300 engineers working for him, Paul said.

“So we’re humbled that people would want to take a risk”

Paul Nguyen, at 25:53

No vaporware

Permiso isn’t in super sales mode, Paul said. He wants a product that solves the customer’s problem before he pushes it, and he has been pushed to sell a product too early before. Jon added the operational maturity that has to go with a product.

Paul tied it back to relationships. Many of the people he sells to are friends and colleagues of over two decades, and he doesn’t want to disappoint them.

“So I don’t want to sell any vaporware either.”

Paul Nguyen, at 27:01

He and Jason have a reputation to keep, he said:

“we always try to do right by our customers.”

Paul Nguyen, at 27:11

Asking someone to pay a couple hundred thousand dollars for a product that isn’t ready doesn’t feel good, he said. Jon said a relationship with a customer is the same as one with a friend.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 26:47
About 35 seconds: Paul on not selling vaporware. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Three boxes joined by arrows. Solve the problem: a product that works. Operational maturity: what goes with it. Then sell it, filled: to people who trust you. Below, a list. Many of the people Paul sells to are friends and colleagues of over two decades. A price of a couple hundred thousand dollars for something that isn't ready doesn't feel good, he said. Then: "So I don't want to sell any vaporware either." Paul, at 27:01.
Ready before you sell it. Source: the episode.

Your favorite Avenger

Jon asked for a favorite interview question. Paul answered with a weekly get-to-know-each-other question, because Permiso is fully remote and widely distributed internationally. The last one asked for everyone’s favorite Avenger. It set off a debate about Marvel and DC, he said, and the team got to nerd out about comic books. Jon said culture comes from the leadership. Paul said he tells everyone about the first 20 hires: as a company grows, the culture persists through the people who worked with the founders every day. So Permiso works on it early.

“for us, that culture is trust and transparency.”

Paul Nguyen, at 29:18

Part of it is his style, he said: have the tough conversation, solve the problem and move on. He doesn’t want things to fester.

Jon took it further:

“A disagreement is a wonderful thing in my books”

Jon McLachlan, at 29:48

Someone learns something new about how the world works, he said, or sees it from another set of experiences.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 29:10
About 40 seconds: Paul on trust and transparency. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.
Three cards side by side. A weekly question: a fully remote, international team gets to know each other. Last time: your favorite Avenger. The first 20 hires: the culture persists through the people who work with the founders every day. Tough talks, filled: have the hard conversation, solve the problem, and move on. Then: "for us, that culture is trust and transparency." Paul, at 29:18.
How Permiso set its culture, in Paul's words. Source: the episode.

Build those relationships

Jon asked for parting words of wisdom.

“build those meaningful relationships, and they will yield in both a lot of ways, personally and professionally, over time.”

Paul Nguyen, at 30:32

Jon seconded it.

Listen · Paul Nguyen on episode 13, from 30:21
About 20 seconds: Jon asks for parting words, and Paul answers. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

What happened after the tape

P0 Labs. On June 21, 2022, Permiso introduced P0 Labs, a team of incident response and red team experts led by Ian Ahl. Its job was to turn front-line incident response knowledge into runtime detection (Permiso).

SOC 2 Type I. On August 15, 2022, Jason Martin announced that Permiso was SOC 2 Type I certified (Permiso).

What the first year caught. On February 6, 2023, P0 Labs wrote that the suspicious and malicious behavior Permiso detected in 2022 had gone undetected by existing threat detection and monitoring tools. Those environments ran SIEMs and cloud security tools (Permiso).

LUCR-3. On September 20, 2023, P0 Labs described LUCR-3, a financially motivated group that overlaps with Scattered Spider. It uses the identity provider as its way in and steals intellectual property for extortion (Permiso). On the tape, Paul said there weren’t many attacks in cloud yet. Ian Ahl, who led P0 Labs, walked through LUCR-3 at fwd:cloudsec in 2024. The notes for Paul’s Enterprise Security Weekly segment link the talk.

Ian Ahl's fwd:cloudsec talk on LUCR-3, 24 minutes, posted on June 21, 2024. Watch on YouTube.

A Series A. On April 3, 2024, Permiso announced an $18.5 million Series A led by Altimeter Capital, with Point72 Ventures. The post cites six- and seven-figure license deals with Fortune 500 customers (Permiso).

On other shows. Paul was on the Talking Cloud Podcast on March 17, 2025 (Podbean). On April 7, 2025, he talked on Enterprise Security Weekly #401 about threats against identity, insider threats and non-human identity compromise (SC Media).

Two SC Awards. Permiso won Most Promising Early-Stage Startup at the 2025 SC Awards, announced during the RSA Conference (Permiso). On March 24, 2026, during RSAC 2026, it won Best Threat Detection Technology (Permiso).

A free inventory. On June 10, 2025, Permiso announced Permiso Discover, an inventory of human, non-human and AI identities, with a waitlist (Permiso).

Research on X. On June 16, 2026, Permiso posted P0 Labs research on a deprecated Google Cloud log field and what it means for detection coverage (X).

Okta. Okta signed a definitive agreement to acquire Permiso and closed the deal on August 26, 2026. Okta describes Permiso as a cloud-native identity security platform for human, non-human and agentic identities, and says its signals, behavioral analytics and detections will give the Okta Platform identity threat detection and response (Okta). In the release, Paul says the combined teams will help security teams “gain deeper visibility into identity risks.” Okta is an identity and access management company founded in 2009 (Wikipedia). Paul’s LinkedIn lists him as Okta’s vice president of identity threat detection and response from August 2026 (LinkedIn).

Paul on Permiso joining Okta.

Paul Nguyen · August 27, 2026
Paul's post the day after the deal closed. View on LinkedIn.

More on this site. On episode 50, Alan Braithwaite of RunReveal walked through the stack a SIEM buyer ends up with, all of it aimed at detection and response. On episode 60, Damon Fleury of SpyCloud described a stolen log as a list of doors to close. On episode 92, Jasson Casey of Beyond Identity said identity sees everything. On episode 76, Michael Nov of Prime Security named his proudest day as a founder.

A timeline. June 2022: P0 Labs, incident responders and red teamers, turning what they see into detections. September 2023: LUCR-3, a group that comes in through the identity provider. April 2024: Series A, $18.5 million, led by Altimeter Capital. April 2025: on the air, Paul on Enterprise Security Weekly, on threats against identity. March 2026: SC Award, Best Threat Detection Technology, a year after Most Promising Early-Stage Startup. August 2026, filled: Okta closes its acquisition of Permiso, and Paul leads identity threat detection and response there.
After the tape, from P0 Labs to Okta. Sources: Permiso, Okta, SC Media, LinkedIn and X.

Did you catch it? A seven-question quiz

Seven questions from the episode. Each answer links the moment in the transcript or its section.

Quiz · seven questions

Did you catch it?

Pick an answer to see whether you caught it.

  1. What did Paul say the cloud security market is repeating?

    a. "what we're seeing in the cloud security market is basically just history repeating itself." Transcript, 1:38.

  2. Who set Paul and Jason on the path to identity?

    b. Jason Chan, a friend of 20 years. See Identity, detection and response.

  3. How many customer conversations came before they settled on cloud identity detection and response?

    c. 200, over about 18 months. See Identity, detection and response.

  4. What did Paul say you get from investing in relationships?

    a. "that's where you get to manufacture luck" Transcript, 10:52.

  5. In a market you're pioneering, how often did Paul say you hear no?

    b. Nine times out of ten, so you need the conviction. See Nine times out of ten.

  6. What can a yes to a wrong-fit customer cost, in Paul's telling?

    c. Months of engineering on a tangent. See No goes both ways.

  7. What two pillars did Paul say Permiso's culture stands on?

    a. "for us, that culture is trust and transparency." Transcript, 29:18.

Is your cloud repeating history?

Eight questions on whether your cloud looks like the data center years Paul described, or like what came after them. Each tip quotes the tape or paraphrases it, and links its section.

Scorecard · eight questions

Is your cloud repeating history?

Answer for your company as it runs today. If two answers fit, pick the lower one.

  1. Do you know every identity in your cloud, human and non-human?

    • We have no inventory
    • People yes, service accounts and keys in part
    • One inventory of people, service accounts, keys and agents, kept current

    Permiso was built on identity. See Identity, detection and response.

  2. Are default credentials and long-lived keys gone?

    • We haven't checked
    • Mostly, with known exceptions
    • Yes, and a check alerts when one appears

    "setting them up with default credentials and leaving them wide open for attackers" See History repeating itself.

  3. Do you detect unusual identity behavior, or only misconfigurations?

    • Neither
    • Misconfigurations only
    • Both, including odd sign-ins, new keys and privilege changes

    In the data center years, detection and response came after compliance. See History repeating itself.

  4. Who reads your cloud and identity provider logs?

    • Nobody, they're only stored
    • Someone, when there's an incident
    • An owner reviews the alerts every day

    Permiso's first year found malicious behavior that other tools missed. See What happened after the tape.

  5. Can you trace an action in the cloud to the person or workload behind it?

    • No
    • For people, not for services
    • Yes, for people, services and agents

    Permiso paired identity with detection and response. See Identity, detection and response.

  6. Do you have a playbook for a compromised identity?

    • No
    • An informal one
    • Written and practiced: disable, rotate, and review what it touched

    LUCR-3 comes in through the identity provider. See What happened after the tape.

  7. Is MFA enforced for identity provider admins and cloud root accounts?

    • No
    • For some of them
    • For all of them, with phishing-resistant factors

    The identity provider is the way in for groups like LUCR-3. See What happened after the tape.

  8. Have you tested your detection against a known attack pattern?

    • Never
    • Once, a while ago
    • Every quarter, against a pattern like a move from the identity provider into the cloud

    Ian Ahl's talk walks through one pattern. See What happened after the tape.

Repeating history

Your cloud looks like the data center years: credentials and identities nobody watches. Start with an inventory of every identity, then remove default credentials and long-lived keys.

Catching up

You have the basics, and detection on identity behavior is partial. Next, give the alerts an owner who reads them every day, and write the playbook for a compromised identity.

Ahead of it

You watch identities as well as settings. Keep testing detection against known attack patterns, and keep the inventory current as keys and agents multiply.

What does a wrong-fit yes cost?

Paul said a yes to the wrong customer can cost six to nine months and a lot of engineering effort. This calculator counts the engineering.

Calculator

What does a wrong-fit yes cost?

Four numbers: the engineers a request pulls off course, the months it takes, what an engineer-month costs you, and what the deal brings in during its first year.

$360,000engineering cost of the detour
18engineer-months
240%of the first-year deal

Engineering time on the yes: 18 engineer-months, at a cost of $360,000. That's 240% of what the deal brings in during its first year.

The calculator counts engineering time only. It leaves out what the deal brings in after its first year and what the work might be worth to other customers. The defaults are placeholders: put in your own numbers.

From orchestration to Okta

Paul’s roles, Permiso’s milestones, the industry events behind the tape, and this show. Filter by topic.

Timeline

From orchestration to Okta

  1. CERT Coordination Center

    Set up in Pittsburgh at DARPA's direction after the Morris worm (Wikipedia, on this page).

  2. RSA Conference

    Starts as a small cryptography conference (Wikipedia, on this page).

  3. Symantec buys @stake

    The security services company where Paul started as a white hat hacker (Wikipedia, Permiso).

  4. CISO

    Director of information assurance at the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency, to 2007 (LinkedIn, on this page).

  5. Deloitte

    Manager at Deloitte & Touche, to 2008 (LinkedIn).

  6. Neohapsis

    Director of federal solutions, to July 2009 (LinkedIn).

  7. Knowledge Consulting Group

    Vice president of cyber solutions, to June 2013 (LinkedIn).

  8. Okta founded

    An identity and access management company (Wikipedia).

  9. Invotas

    CEO and founder, pioneering security automation and orchestration, to February 2016 (LinkedIn, on this page).

  10. FireEye goes public

    Raising $300 million (Wikipedia).

  11. FireEye buys Mandiant

    For $1 billion (Wikipedia).

  12. FireEye buys Invotas

    After iSIGHT Partners in January 2016 (Wikipedia). Paul becomes vice president and general manager of Helix and orchestration at FireEye (LinkedIn).

  13. Senior vice president

    Product strategy and product management at FireEye, to August 2019 (LinkedIn, on this page).

  14. Permiso

    Co-founder and co-CEO (LinkedIn).

  15. Out of stealth

    With a $10 million seed round led by Point72 Ventures (Permiso, on this page).

  16. Episode 13

    Paul on the show (Podbean, transcript).

  17. P0 Labs

    Incident responders and red teamers turn what they see into detections (Permiso).

  18. SOC 2 Type I

    Permiso's first SOC 2 report (Permiso).

  19. LUCR-3

    A group that comes in through the identity provider (Permiso).

  20. Series A

    $18.5 million, led by Altimeter Capital (Permiso).

  21. LUCR-3 on stage

    Ian Ahl at fwd:cloudsec (YouTube, on this page).

  22. Episode 60

    Damon Fleury of SpyCloud on closing the doors stolen credentials open (episode page).

  23. Enterprise Security Weekly

    Paul on threats against identity (SC Media).

  24. SC Award

    Most Promising Early-Stage Startup (Permiso).

  25. Permiso Discover

    An inventory of human, non-human and AI identities (Permiso).

  26. Second SC Award

    Best Threat Detection Technology (Permiso).

  27. Episode 92

    Jasson Casey of Beyond Identity on why identity sees everything (episode page).

  28. Research on X

    A deprecated Google Cloud log field and detection coverage (X).

  29. Okta closes the deal

    Permiso joins Okta (Okta, LinkedIn).

  30. Okta

    Vice president of identity threat detection and response (LinkedIn).

What to do this week

Five things, in the order of the episode.

  1. List every identity you have. Count the people, service accounts, keys and agents in your cloud and identity provider, as in Identity, detection and response.
  2. Remove the defaults. Find default credentials and long-lived keys, and rotate or delete them, as in History repeating itself.
  3. Watch what identities do. Give one person the identity alerts each day, and test them against a known pattern like LUCR-3, as in What happened after the tape.
  4. Write down who doesn’t fit. Name the requests you’ll say no to before a customer asks, as in No goes both ways.
  5. Get help with it. Our AI Access Control Audits check who and what can reach your cloud, AI Cloud Detection & Response watches what those identities do, and vCISO Services help you decide what to build and what to say no to. If you want to talk it through, book 15 minutes with us.

Key takeaways

  1. Cloud repeats data center history

    New technology brings default credentials and systems left wide open, Paul said, out of a learning curve more than negligence. Compliance comes first, then the detection and response that real attacks call for.

  2. Pioneer the next problem

    Paul's earlier startup was one of the first in security orchestration and automation. With Permiso, he and Jason went after detection in cloud before the attacks got there.

  3. Pair identity with detection

    Jason Chan pointed them at identity, and about 200 customer conversations over 18 months settled cloud identity detection and response as the core.

  4. Make your own luck

    Invest in people early and help them along the way, Paul said. He sold his last company because he knew FireEye's CEO and president when they were looking.

  5. Share the bad parts

    Paul and Jason tell new hires about their own mistakes, more than most founders would, so the next person doesn't repeat them.

  6. Expect to hear no

    In a market you're pioneering, Paul said, you hear no nine times out of ten. Conviction, small course corrections and a co-founder who balances you keep you going.

  7. Say no to the wrong fit

    A yes to requirements that don't fit can pull a team off course for six to nine months, Paul said. Be decisive and stay on the path.

  8. Build on trust and transparency

    Permiso's culture rests on trust and transparency, Paul said: tough conversations early, a weekly question for a remote team, and care with the first 20 hires.

Chapters

Tap a chapter to play from there.

Pull quotes

“what we're seeing in the cloud security market is basically just history repeating itself.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“not because of negligence, but just because of the learning curve you have to go through”

Paul Nguyen ·

“We want to be ahead of it and have some fun pioneering.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“the one that really set us on this path of looking at identity.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“Because I needed to look three to five years out”

Paul Nguyen ·

“And the good thing is, neither of us have an ego.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“being a CISO at the time was not enjoyable, because you basically couldn't get any budget, and you couldn't get anything done without begging and pleading.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“that's where you get to manufacture luck”

Paul Nguyen ·

“It's not about stuff, it's not about the products, it's about the people.”

Jon McLachlan ·

“Like, sometimes you have to expose the bad parts.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“he has his days, I have my days, and then we just balance each other and we're good.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“there are such things as bad customers.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“you'll end up dying by a thousand cuts”

Paul Nguyen ·

“So I don't want to sell any vaporware either.”

Paul Nguyen ·

“for us, that culture is trust and transparency.”

Paul Nguyen ·

About the guest

Paul Nguyen, Co-founder and Co-CEO, Permiso Security

Paul Nguyen co-founded Permiso Security in 2019 and was its co-CEO with Jason Martin until Okta acquired the company in August 2026, where his LinkedIn lists him as vice president of identity threat detection and response. Before Permiso he founded Invotas, a security orchestration and automation company that FireEye bought, and rose to senior vice president of product strategy and product management at FireEye. Earlier he was a CISO, and worked at Knowledge Consulting Group, Neohapsis and Deloitte. He studied at Carnegie Mellon University.

About the host

Jon McLachlan is co-founder of YSecurity, the on-demand cybersecurity team for startups, and of Cyberbase.ai. The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley is hosted by Jon McLachlan and Sasha Sinkevich. Jon McLachlan on LinkedIn ↗

Context and sources

  • Episode 13 on Podbean: Paul Nguyen, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Permiso Security, On Innovating Security Postures. Source ↗
  • Paul Nguyen's LinkedIn experience: Okta from August 2026, Permiso from August 2019 to August 2026, FireEye from February 2016 to August 2019, Invotas from June 2013 to February 2016, Knowledge Consulting Group, Neohapsis, Deloitte, and a CISO role at the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency. Source ↗
  • Permiso, January 18, 2022: Permiso comes out of stealth with a $10 million seed round led by Point72 Ventures, with cloud identity detection and response. Source ↗
  • Permiso's about page: team bios, including Jason Martin as Shakacon's organizer and Paul's start at @stake, and Jason Chan on identity in the cloud. Source ↗
  • Permiso, June 21, 2022: P0 Labs, a team of incident response and red team experts. Source ↗
  • Permiso, August 15, 2022: SOC 2 Type I. Source ↗
  • Permiso, February 6, 2023: 2022 end of year observations from P0 Labs. Source ↗
  • Permiso, September 20, 2023: LUCR-3, a financially motivated group that uses the identity provider as initial access. Source ↗
  • Permiso, April 3, 2024: an $18.5 million Series A led by Altimeter Capital, with Point72 Ventures. Source ↗
  • fwd:cloudsec on YouTube, June 21, 2024: LUCR-3: Cloud Clepto & SaaS-y Scattered Spider Shenanigans, Ian Ahl. Source ↗
  • SC Media, April 7, 2025: Enterprise Security Weekly #401, with Paul Nguyen on threats against identity, insider threats and non-human identity compromise. Source ↗
  • Talking Cloud Podcast, March 17, 2025: an episode with Paul Nguyen. Source ↗
  • Permiso, May 1, 2025: Most Promising Early-Stage Startup at the 2025 SC Awards. Source ↗
  • Permiso, June 10, 2025: Permiso Discover, an inventory of human, non-human and AI identities. Source ↗
  • Permiso, March 25, 2026: Best Threat Detection Technology at the 2026 SC Awards, announced March 24 during RSAC 2026. Source ↗
  • Permiso on X, June 16, 2026: P0 Labs research on a deprecated Google Cloud log field and detection coverage. Source ↗
  • Okta: Okta signed a definitive agreement to acquire Permiso Security and closed the acquisition on August 26, 2026. Source ↗
  • Paul Nguyen on LinkedIn, August 27, 2026: on Permiso joining Okta. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, Trellix: FireEye went public in late 2013, bought Mandiant in December 2013, and bought Invotas after iSIGHT Partners in January 2016. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, Okta, Inc.: an identity and access management company founded in 2009. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, Identity threat detection and response: a discipline that protects identity management infrastructure from attacks. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, Security orchestration, automation and response: tools that let organizations respond to some incidents automatically. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, CERT Coordination Center: the first organization of its kind, created in Pittsburgh in November 1988. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, RSA Conference: founded in 1991 as a small cryptography conference. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, @stake: a security services company in Cambridge, Massachusetts, acquired by Symantec in 2004. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, The Minimalists: authors of Love People, Use Things (2021). Source ↗
  • Wikipedia, Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon: a parlor game that links actors to Kevin Bacon through their films. Source ↗

Transcript

Automatic transcription. Jon McLachlan hosts this episode with Paul Nguyen, co-founder and co-CEO of Permiso Security. There is no diarization on the tape, so speaker labels were assigned from the content and checked against reference recordings of each voice from this episode, and a few short lines may sit with the wrong speaker. Names and terms were normalized where the recognizer misheard them (Jon McLachlan, Paul Nguyen, Permiso, Jason Martin, Jason Chan, Symantec, Carnegie Mellon, FireEye, Shakacon, KPMG, Dark Reading, VentureBeat, TechCrunch, SecurityWeek). Words in [brackets] are best guesses where the audio is unclear. Answers are transcribed as spoken, with most repeated words and false starts kept. Short backchannels such as "yeah" and "right" are left out where they overlap the other speaker.

Read the full transcript 6,306 words

Jon McLachlan

Welcome to the Security Podcast of Silicon Valley. I am your host, Jon McLachlan, and I am here with a very special guest, Paul Nguyen.

Paul Nguyen

Thanks for having me.

Jon McLachlan

No, thanks for joining. So you are co-founder, co-CEO of Permiso Security.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, it's the co-CEO part is always the fun part. People are like, why co-CEOs? The funny story is I've already been a CEO, my co-founder's already been a CEO, and we both tried not to be CEO this time.

Jon McLachlan

So how do you guys flip a coin on when, who's going to be the CEO for a certain...

Paul Nguyen

I try to fire myself as a co-CEO every day and make him a CEO, but he doesn't want that now.

Jon McLachlan

No, I love it. I'm looking at your LinkedIn, lots of engagement in the security community. You spent some time at Symantec, Deloitte. This is not your first startup, so congratulations. And you studied in Carnegie Mellon. Very nice.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, it's been, you're just making me feel old now, because now I'm reliving how long my career has been in this industry, and almost two decades. So now I feel old.

Jon McLachlan

The way I would phrase that is you bring a lot of experience to the table.

Paul Nguyen

Not when I look in the mirror and I see the gray hairs. That's what it's sort of...

Jon McLachlan

Well, okay, so for our guests, this, who can't see the video, he has absolutely no gray hair, as far as I can see. So what do you guys do with Permiso?

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Let's take all those 20 years of experience and just one tagline. Yeah, I think the experience does actually lend itself, because in a lot of ways, what we're seeing in the cloud security market is basically just history repeating itself. And for those of us that started way back when, we were seeing new data centers being built, and people were standing up, you know, servers and firewalls. And what we saw was people were doing, I'd say, things that were probably not the most secure, because they didn't know any better, right? They were just unpacking, like, firewalls and setting them up with default credentials and leaving them wide open for attackers to compromise. And I think we're seeing that history repeat itself. And not because of negligence, but just because of the learning curve you have to go through to learn new technologies and to secure them. And then, you know, what we saw was compliance is the start of security, and that's, you know, the minimum security you have to do. From there, people started doing quote-unquote real security when bad guys started to attack and started to steal your data and take things down. Then, you know, you had these detection and response products that came about to start to fill that void. So, you know, we felt like if we're going to do something, we're going to do something where it's not today's problem. We want to be ahead of it and have some fun pioneering. I mean, I did that in my previous startup. We were one of the first security orchestration and automation companies. Actually, we were the first one, and it was fun. And I got, I'd say, addicted to trying to prove to people that your market is a thing and it actually is a market. And I think we're in that current state right now. And so we felt like cloud security in particular wasn't quite ready for detection, because there's not a ton of attacks happening yet in cloud. We focused on that primary area. And then that turned, and we've talked to Jason Chan. Jason Chan was also one of our first angel investors. He's head of security at Netflix. I've known Jason for 20 years. So, you know, he and I started when we were little punk 20-year-olds who didn't know any better. So he was the one that really set us on this path of looking at identity. And so we married identity and detection and response, and we had 200 customer conversations later. We said, yeah, we got it. We're going to focus on cloud identity detection [and] response, is our core area.

Jon McLachlan

So, awesome. So you had 200 conversations with customers already.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, we spent about 18 months doing that. So the good thing about being old in this industry is you pretty much have six degrees of Kevin Bacon to anyone that you want to talk to, right? So it's interesting when you talk to investors and say, oh, we have access to all these people. It's like, oh, we do too, between Jason and I. Jason's also famous for running a hacker conference out in Hawaii called Shakacon. And so [JC], he hasn't been able to do it with COVID, but, you know, we [kept this] old school community where we got access to people and say, hey, what are your problems? If you could magically solve something, what could it be? And that's how we started to survey the industry. And I ran product for FireEye, which was almost a billion-dollar business. Jason ran the engineering side, so together we ran a pretty big business. And part of my job was corporate development, in terms of acquiring new companies to build our portfolio from an inorganic standpoint. And that gave me a perspective that I looked at a lot of companies and could see where different companies were positioning and where the... Because I needed to look three to five years out, right? And we're a public company, so you always have to be on the cutting edge of that. And so that all informed what became Permiso, and it took us about two, you know, almost two years to come out of stealth. But we were, like I said, very purposeful in terms of where we wanted to go, what we want to do and who we would tell.

Jon McLachlan

Excellent. So you mentioned Jason Martin. Is that your co-founder?

Paul Nguyen

Jason Martin is my co-founder and co-CEO, yeah.

Jon McLachlan

Awesome. So he's the other, he's the one who you're trying to kick over the full-time job of CEO to.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, he's a better-looking and smarter one, so...

Jon McLachlan

Oh, sure. We'll have to do a follow-up podcast on that one with all three of us. So you already had a working relationship with Jason. How far back did that go?

Paul Nguyen

Let's see, it's going on about six years.

Jon McLachlan

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Like, that trust is very important between co-founders.

Paul Nguyen

So, yeah, culturally, that was actually our number one pillar, was really trust. And I don't know if it's because I, you know, I'm from Jersey or not, but, you know, maybe I'm just pessimistic about people in general. And trust is hard to build with me, but [JC] and I built a great relationship. And we both could have gone off and done our own things. But in reality, we were like, yeah, let's join forces. This is way more fun to do it together and combine our capabilities. And the good thing is, neither of us have an ego. I mean, quite honestly, you know, it starts with that whole, I don't need to be CEO, you know, neither. And I have nothing to prove to anyone outside of just doing something interesting and fun and building a company with people that I want to work with every day. And that's more important to me, is enjoying going to work every day with the culture that you've built from the ground up. That's the part that I get addicted to with startups, is being able to do that. I'm not a big company kind of guy. That's a little too big of a machine in politics and bureaucracy that just doesn't quite jibe.

Jon McLachlan

Doesn't jibe. Yeah, I know. I can understand that sentiment completely, being in both big companies and small companies myself. So I get that, and probably a lot of our listeners, even if they're only in one side of that, you know, grass is always greener on the other side. Well, you know, try it and you'll see.

Paul Nguyen

For sure. For sure.

Jon McLachlan

So if we go all the way back to your childhood, you know, I feel like you bring a lot of passion and a lot of [great] values to the table, trust being one of them. But clearly, security is also a passion of yours, too. But in your childhood, was there really a story there that sort of helped shape who you are today?

Paul Nguyen

I was always the kid that would take things apart just to figure out how they worked. I probably destroyed most of my toys. And whether you call that kind of, like, an engineer's mentality or whatever, I like to build stuff, right? And actually, one of my hobbies, because I grew up [completely dirt] poor, we were immigrants, right? So my parents were boat people that escaped Vietnam, the typical story that you probably hear. And, you know, I was [engineering-minded, at least] by SATs, and did a pretty good job, decent job enough, you know, not enough to go to an Ivy League school, but Carnegie Mellon was something I could settle for. And it was a great experience for me. But yeah, I always had this natural curiosity around how things worked. And I had a Commodore 64, you know, first computer that my dad had. And I remember programming games and BASIC, learning how to do that. I just had a natural tendency towards computers as well. So I think all that together, and then being at Carnegie Mellon, I actually wanted, I graduated in 2002, I actually wanted to be an investment banker. So I was a developer for many years in college to pay for, you know, my beer and partying and all the good stuff that I enjoyed. But I ultimately wanted to be an investment banker. But in 2002, [everyone] was getting fired out of Wall Street because of the dot-com bust. And I ended up getting exposed to security at Carnegie Mellon. That's where they were one of the, [actually the first] CERT, for emergency response, like computer emergency response. And there you go.

Jon McLachlan

Yeah, that's one of the best universities. You're very humble about going to Carnegie Mellon. That's actually one of the best universities out there for computer science, and security in particular, too.

Paul Nguyen

So, yeah, this was way back in the day, in the '90s. It is computers, yeah, definitely, for sure. Security was still very nascent and emerging. And so it was fun to be at the ground floor of that industry. Although it took over a decade before security became serious and people cared. I was a CISO somewhere in between, and being a CISO at the time was not enjoyable, because you basically couldn't get any budget, and you couldn't get anything done without begging and pleading. So it was nice to see the day when security became a real thing in this industry. You know, we could have some fun with it. And it takes up, you know, like the whole Moscone Center and then some at the conference, right? That wasn't the way, RSA conferences and all that. It wasn't like that back then. So...

Jon McLachlan

Maybe through those experiences, or just through your own traveling through life, what's one truth that you see in the world that most people miss?

Paul Nguyen

You know, I try to tell this to a lot of my employees that work for me. And probably the greatest joy that I see is, I was talking to someone the other day, who was an investor, and they're talking, oh, do you know this company and the CEO? Yeah, he worked for me 10 years ago, when he was 19. And you see, you get to see a family tree of different, especially being in the industry for so long, your folks are going off and being successful. But the one thing I've always told them is, sometimes, as engineers, one of the things that we shy away from is relationships and building those types of personal relationships. But networking and relationship building was one of the things I learned early on. And I was very fortunate, and I'll give him a shout-out too, is my very first manager was this gentleman named Matt Miller. And now he's a [partner], [a] big wig at KPMG. But I would watch him, and he had this knack for just knowing everybody. And I was like, wow, this is fascinating. Like, everyone likes him and he knows everyone, and he's like a phone call away from... So I learned that literally when I was 21, and I emulated that for years. And I would say that's where you get to manufacture luck, in the sense of [the] opportunities you create with people that you know.

Jon McLachlan

Yeah.

Paul Nguyen

Now, I sold my last company not because it was a great company. [I] just happened to know the CEO and president of FireEye, who were looking at a company, and they're like, hey, we know a guy. So that's always been how it's worked out for me. I've manufactured luck by just happening to know people and investing in those relationships, like genuine, building genuine relationships with people. And not really, I'd say, I want to go sell you something. I'm going to call you five years after I ever talked to you, I'm going to say, I need something for you. That's not how it works, right? So you have to actually invest in these relationships and help people along the way. And I believe in things coming back around if you're just a good person and do the right thing. And that's always been the mantra that I live by. And I try to tell my folks, is invest in people, invest in relationships.

Jon McLachlan

Yeah.

Paul Nguyen

It's not about just what's in front of you. You have to think longer term about...

Jon McLachlan

It's not about stuff, it's not about the products, it's about the people.

Paul Nguyen

I love that. Yes. Always about the people. I'm with you there.

Jon McLachlan

There is a minimalist book called, the title of the book is Love People, Use Things, Because the Opposite Never Works.

Paul Nguyen

I like that. How about [that]?

Jon McLachlan

Yeah, it seems to fit pretty well.

Paul Nguyen

Well, [love] people, use things. Okay, gotcha.

Jon McLachlan

Yep, very straightforward. You can summarize the entire book with just the title. You don't have to read it. You don't have to buy it. There it is. The secret message right there. I'm exactly the same way, but I think that for me, I learned that much later in my career. I didn't have the great experience that you did quite so early.

Paul Nguyen

Mentorship is big for me. Actually, Jason and I, our philosophy, and every time that we bring someone new, we said, we can teach you a lot of things about startups, because we've made lots of mistakes. And the last thing we want to do is have you make the same mistake. So it's a learning culture, in the sense that we share probably a lot more than most founders would, because we want to give the transparency. So you're giving... It's not all the, oh, it's so fun and glitz and glamour, and they don't see the bad parts. Like, sometimes you have to expose the bad parts.

Jon McLachlan

It's just part of the journey, right? It's part of the journey. You need to learn from those parts, that you don't want to shield them completely from it.

Paul Nguyen

And then they're naturally inquisitive. I don't know anything about marketing, can I learn about marketing? We work with some really strong, smart, technical people, and we, and Jason and I also do some angel investing and see some very strong technical founders. It's, you know, sometimes they may not have a good marketing experience. So we have to look at that, and we try to mentor on that side. And so, yeah, we're very much in our giving phase of our career. We want to build the next set of entrepreneurs. I would love to see all of our employees go off and start their own companies. And I've had a couple of those over the years where you can look back and go, yeah, you know, you've made some kind of impact on their life and career. And I have a few of those [mentors] in my life that I give full credit to, Matt Miller being one. James Mobley was my CEO at two different startups. Yeah, I think he's at Cisco now, and he was a former football player, like, made it to the NFL, and he looks like he'd probably still be a strong safety in hitting someone. But he's, you know, I've been surrounded by great mentors. Even to this day, being older and experienced, I still have my mentors I go to for times of crisis, when I need my help. So I want to be the same for all the [guys].

Jon McLachlan

I love that giving spirit, the generosity, the passing it forward that you bring to the table. So, I mean, if you think about your experience with Permiso so far, what would you say has been the absolute hands-down best day of your journey?

Paul Nguyen

Best day was when we started it.

Jon McLachlan

Well, okay, so let me ask you, so what did that mean, to start it? Does that mean, like, the inception day where you had the idea, or you met your co-founder, or when you incorporated, or collect funding, or...

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, I'll never forget it, right? So I'll say the inception date was, Jason used to live in Palo Alto, he lives in Reno, [Nevada,] now. But I remember flying out, and I said, okay, Jason, let's go figure this out. And we spent six hours, this may sound terrible, but we were six hours of this hookah bar. We're just like, what are we going to do? We talked [for three] straight nights, and we finally said, okay, I think this is it. You know, we're going to go do this, and we're both going to quit.

Jon McLachlan

And, you know, that's, it's big, because you take that leap. You need to make that commitment to each other. You have to take that leap, leave your day job. Yeah, and [you're] both [leaving] the security of the, you know, the steady paycheck, the RSUs, the options, whatever it is.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, and [you're talking] executives at a public company. It's a nice little, it's a big commitment. Yeah. We had done well in the past, but it's easy to take it easy for the rest of your career. I mean, I could have rode out a job for a long time, but I think making that commitment and taking the risk. And even though, you know, it's probably less of a risk for us, because we're not first-time founders, and we've been through this, and we've been lucky enough to be successful. But even then, that's still a risk. I mean, we haven't paid ourselves in two years, almost three years. And, you know, we're investing everything into the business. We bootstrapped it ourselves.

Jon McLachlan

That shows commitment.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah. And we wanted to be on our own terms and make our own mistakes. And so... But I think the second-best day was the launch, like two days ago, when you get to tell everyone what you're doing. And then you see, is this going to be a complete [dud], or is this going to be just, like, massive fanfare? And even though I just, [so my last time], what, six, six years ago, six, seven years ago? It's very different. Like, I know so much more, and I'm much more comfortable and at ease and more even keel than when I was back then, when it was super stressful. But I think that's a part of being a repeat founder: you know how to deal with a lot of the emotional side a lot.

Jon McLachlan

Yes. Yes. And you've been there. You've done that. You got the t-shirt.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah. [Both co-founders have] done the same thing. So now, you know, and we both run, you know, we were at big companies and did the executive thing. We had a lot more experience. Even, I'm not a big company person, I learned a lot. So I could still take the benefit of having been good. It's been a good education at FireEye. I can't dismiss that at all. It was a good experience for me, anyways.

Jon McLachlan

No, that's spectacular. Even at a big company, you still got your learning hat on. You're staying humble. You're staying hungry. Making the most of wherever it is that you are.

Paul Nguyen

Yep.

Jon McLachlan

So what was, what's been the worst day? Just maybe filled with dread or doubt or something at your journey.

Paul Nguyen

So I can't say it's one day, but you go through these peaks and valleys, right?

Jon McLachlan

There's definitely valleys, yeah.

Paul Nguyen

We had 100% conviction you were absolutely on to the right thing. And it's hard, although I am better equipped to deal with the emotional side, it is hard at times when you might get a little bit of doubt, when you have a customer conversation and someone, you know, you think is, oh, yeah, this is like a big customer, and it's not really. You get rejected, right? So, like, rejection, even though you're used to it, still tough sometimes, because you could still say, yeah, this might not be the best thing. But that's a part of being entrepreneurs, that fortitude and conviction to stay a path and identify what the right thing to do is. And I, you know, the [one] thing I learned over the years: you get told no way more than you get told yes, especially in the early days of, if you're pioneering a market, you're going to get no, told no nine times out of 10. And no one else can have more conviction around this than you are. And so you need to stay the course. Now, you do need to make minor course corrections along the way, but yeah, those valleys do come along, right? Every once in a while, and you're like, oh boy. And then that's where having a co-CEO is great. You go, look, [are] we still on the right path? Yeah, we're still on the right path. And then, you know, he has his days, I have my days, and then we just balance each other and we're good.

Jon McLachlan

No, that's awesome. I like the support network that you've built in with your co-founder, but I'm also jealous that you get told no. Like, oftentimes you'll be having these discussions, and they just get drawn out and drawn out, and [you] realize that at some point they're not going to say no, but they're not saying yes either. And so where does that lead you? So when you're actually told no, when someone uses that word with you, especially if it's a potential customer, it's like, it's information. It's okay. We can move forward. I can try the next potential customer at this point.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah. Yeah.

Jon McLachlan

Reconnect in five years, in three years, or whatever.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah. But you hit on, like, a nuance too, right? Because there are ways to get people to answer. And part of it's like, just being honest with you, it may not be a good fit. You know, I don't want to waste your time, don't waste my time. If it's going to work, it's going to work, if you want to commit. It's more of a partnership, [that's it]. If you don't have the time, that's okay. I understand. You have 50 million projects that you're working on, and maybe we're not your priority, and that's fine. Like, I'd rather be honest and upfront. That's just my mentality. I'm much more of a direct person than Jason. Jason's definitely the nicer one. So the yin and the yang, I'm the more direct...

Jon McLachlan

[Because you] seem very nice.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, I'm pretty nice. I can go from nice to, like, all right, let's get this done now. Where are we? Pretty quickly.

Jon McLachlan

That's a great quality to have, to be able to switch. I think, like, you could be firm without being aggressive. And it seems like you bring that firmness to the table. You know exactly what you want. You know, you're going to time-box it, and you're going to drive towards a decision, towards, you know, within that time box.

Paul Nguyen

So time is the most precious thing that I have right now, and I have to make sure that for me and the company, it makes sense. And I've done this, you know, in previous companies, I've told customers, like, I will personally come down as the CEO, especially in the early stage, you're involved in everything, but later stage, I want to listen just to make sure it's good for you. And if it's good for us, if it's not good for us, I'm going to tell you it's not good for us. And there are such things as bad customers. Not because they're bad, like, behavior-wise, they're just not a fit for where you want the company to be. And I have a vision of where I want the company to be. You have to have.

Jon McLachlan

So have you told potential, have you told potential customers, I think, I don't think this is a good fit?

Paul Nguyen

Yeah.

Jon McLachlan

Really?

Paul Nguyen

Yeah.

Jon McLachlan

So what tends to be a driving factor when you reach that conclusion?

Paul Nguyen

When I think about what they're asking for, and their requirements, and their use cases, I think it's orthogonal to where we want to go, or we believe things are. So then, then it's okay. There's somebody else that may solve that problem, but it won't necessarily be us. So that's a part of the tough part of being an entrepreneur, is being able to say no. When you always want to say yes, the problem is when you say yes, you start going down tangents that take you off course.

Jon McLachlan

Right.

Paul Nguyen

You've now maybe lost six to nine months and a lot of engineering effort that could have been directed towards where the ultimate goal was. And I think this is where I tell a lot of first-time founders too, is you need to have your conviction and understand what that means. And [right, wrong or indifferent], you have to be decisive and stay on the path. [If not,] you'll end up dying by a thousand cuts, because that's what happens when you get pulled in 50 different directions. So that you have to be able to say, it's not easy to do, but...

Jon McLachlan

Right. No, it's not easy to do. I didn't think of it that way: no, being a two-way street.

Paul Nguyen

It is, yeah, for sure. I look at it as a two-way street. Maybe not everyone does, but I definitely do.

Jon McLachlan

I think that's super healthy. Very honest perspective. So if you fast-forward into the future, I'll let you decide how far into the future you'd like to take this question, but when you look into that future, what does success look like for Permiso?

Paul Nguyen

I think everyone normally measures it in terms of, oh, some IPO or some exit. And I haven't, I'm [a little] jealous, because Jason did get acquired right before the [FireEye] IPO. So he's got his picture on the NASDAQ, and I haven't done that yet. So I am jealous of that aspect. Do I need it? No. You know, we've both [done] it. I think if I look, let's say it's five years from now, and I'm still having fun waking up every day, and hopefully not [in] my own office, because I can't, I'm a social person, so I can't do this COVID thing anymore.

Jon McLachlan

Oh, I know what you mean.

Paul Nguyen

They used to say, there's an article I remember reading, it was different styles of CEOs. I was the walking CEO, so I'd be the annoying one walking to people's desks going, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing? Like, you're working on it.

Jon McLachlan

You just want to be involved. You care.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah. I just, I just like this social interaction. But I think if, you know, we've got a bunch of happy customers and a bunch of happy employees, and we're going to have our bumps and bruises along the way, then great. I mean, I'm not looking for a specific outcome of, I need to sell this thing by X date, or I need to IPO. [If] we can build a sustainable business and still have fun. I'm getting old enough, much older now, where I want to have fun, right? It's more about enjoying the experience than it is about any particular financial outcome or anything like that.

Jon McLachlan

Oh, but family too.

Paul Nguyen

Well, I do, we, Jason and I do both prioritize it. I have six kids, so...

Jon McLachlan

Six kids. That's a lot. That's a big family. Congratulations.

Paul Nguyen

Yes. I married an Irish Catholic and did not read the contract, is my...

Jon McLachlan

Okay. Very nice. That's funny. I mean, you're both well on your way towards your vision of success and just enjoying the journey, and I think it's a healthy perspective as well. What you recently closed, to share with our listeners, you recently closed 10 million in a seed round there at Permiso. So congratulations.

Paul Nguyen

Thank you. Thank you.

Jon McLachlan

That's difficult to do, and that usually means you're entering an explosive growth mode. So are you guys aggressively hiring?

Paul Nguyen

We are. We are. We're hiring like crazy on the engineering side. I wouldn't say we're sitting here ready to go and tackle this market that's ready to go have a thousand customers. And as I mentioned, I think it's still early. But I think we want to invest in the customer asks that we've gotten. And there's a lot of customer asks from our existing customers that we're working with, and a lot of those that are partnering with us and kind enough to give us their time. So we want to make sure we can execute on that. That's the first and foremost priority. And then, you know, when we think about sales and marketing, I mean, the most marketing we did was this whole launch, which...

Jon McLachlan

It was great. Quite successful. That's how I found you guys.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, yeah. The media coverage was fantastic, and we ended up in Dark Reading and VentureBeat and TechCrunch and SecurityWeek. So it was awesome. I couldn't have asked for a better launch. We got a lot of inbound folks looking to work with us, and...

Jon McLachlan

It's on the order of, like, tens or hundreds or thousands, or...

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, we'll probably [be] hiring about tens in the next... So I'm hoping to probably triple the engineering team in the next couple months. And Jason's [got all his way]. The good thing about Jason is he had 1,300 engineers working for him, so he's got a lot of...

Jon McLachlan

Also, a couple people know about him already.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We had folks that we didn't know were attracting, some pretty, pretty good top talent. So we're humbled that people would want to take a risk on two yahoos that hopefully know what they're doing.

Jon McLachlan

They must be doing something right, right?

Paul Nguyen

Hey, you know, you try to do the right things, and then hopefully it comes back around. That's the best, that's the best you can do. Yeah, we're definitely hiring [like] crazy. And we're not really in super sales mode and trying to sell the product to everyone under the sun. I think we want to make sure we have a good product that actually solves the customer's problems, instead of artificially pushing something that isn't ready. That's the one thing that we want to do a little bit different than, I think, other startups right now, is they're hurrying up and raising a lot of money, and they're trying to sell some products that may or may not be ready. I'm not going to judge it one way or another, but a lot of times, I've been pushed prematurely to go sell a product, and I, you know, I don't like that experience.

Jon McLachlan

That operational maturity that goes with the products, so you can close the market that you're going after. You know, that's important.

Paul Nguyen

It goes back to what we talked about before. It's also relationships. So these are relationships that I've had for over two decades, and the last thing I want to do is disappoint someone that's a friend or a colleague that has placed their trust in us. So I don't want to sell any vaporware either. So the bad part of being in this industry for so long is, Jason and I do have a reputation that we want to maintain, which is, we always try to do right by our customers. And the last thing I want to do is create some [half-baked] product that's not ready, and I'm like, yeah, you should pay, you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars for this thing. It's not quite ready. That's, I don't feel good about that.

Jon McLachlan

I understand completely. It goes back to the relationship. Custom, you know, relationship between you and a customer is the same as, you know, you and a friend.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah. So, 100%.

Jon McLachlan

Going back to your hiring, do you have a favorite interview question? Oh, maybe you don't want to share on podcasts your favorite interview question, but...

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, we did, we have one that, we're definitely, we do these weekly. It's a get to know each other [form], because we're in a fully remote culture.

Jon McLachlan

Right.

Paul Nguyen

This Zoom stuff is going to stay. [More]... We made sure we focused on some of the elements that you normally get when you're in a physical office together and getting to know each other. It's not as easy. We have a widely distributed team internationally. So the last fun one, which created quite a bit of controversy, was, you know, which one's your favorite Avenger? Which spawned, like, why are we just talking about Marvel? Why are we talking about DC? Like, why does it just have to be Avengers? And we got to nerd out a little bit about comic books and Avengers and stuff like that. But we had a good...

Jon McLachlan

Yeah, you asked me a question like that, I probably picked the wrong comic. Someone that's not an Avenger.

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, sure. Exactly. We do a lot of culture questions. We do. Culture is important.

Jon McLachlan

Oh, man. It's ever important, especially for startups. It comes from the leadership, too. You know, you guys started [it].

Paul Nguyen

I tell everyone, the first 20 hires [are the] foundation of the company, because as we grow, the culture persists through everyone who's been able to interact with Jason and I every day. And it's not quite at 20, but, you know, as we get to 100 people or 200, 300 people, it's going to be set. It's a little bit harder for us to be able to do it personally. So we need to make sure that we cultivate that early on. And so we have these fun [filler] questions we do every week, [and] learning a little bit about each other. And, you know, for us, that culture is trust and transparency. That's really the two pillars that we built the company on. When some of it is, you know, my style, where, you know, sometimes you need to have some tough conversations. Let's get it out on the table. Let's solve the problem and move on, right? I don't want things to fester. We've had, you know, you've seen it sometimes in larger company [politics], people talk about things in the background, and if you don't agree with something, let's just have the conversation and we can get all perspectives. At some point, yes, a decision has to be made, and we need to move forward, but there's nothing wrong with having a conversation.

Jon McLachlan

A disagreement is a wonderful thing in my books, because someone is either going to learn something new about how the world works, or have an opportunity to see the world from a different perspective, that, you know, from a different set of experiences, where the problem looks much different from that perspective.

Paul Nguyen

You know, I'm not [arrogant] enough to believe I'm right all the time. Although, you know, I just have a strong sense of [humility]. Yeah, I've learned that at home too. Like, I'm never right with my wife. She's always right. So I'm conditioned to it.

Jon McLachlan

That's funny. Would you like to leave our listeners with any parting words of wisdom?

Paul Nguyen

Yeah, depending upon where you are in your career and your life, make sure you build those meaningful relationships, and they will yield in both a lot of ways, personally and professionally, over time. That's the best thing I can always tell everyone, and what's been really useful for me over the years. And I tell my kids, I tell my employees, build those relationships.

Jon McLachlan

I would second that. Very wise words. Thank you so much, Paul, for joining us on the Security Podcast of Silicon Valley. And thanks for everyone for tuning in and listening for yet another episode here in the Valley.

Paul Nguyen

Thank you.

FAQ

Questions this episode answers

Who is Paul Nguyen?
Paul Nguyen co-founded Permiso Security in 2019 and was its co-CEO with Jason Martin until Okta acquired Permiso in August 2026. His LinkedIn now lists him as Okta's vice president of identity threat detection and response. Before Permiso he founded Invotas, a security orchestration company that FireEye bought, and rose to senior vice president of product strategy and product management at FireEye. He studied at Carnegie Mellon.
What does Permiso do?
Permiso does cloud identity detection and response. Its launch post says it profiles and monitors human and machine identities and credentials for signs of compromised credentials, policy violations or insider threats. Okta describes it as a cloud-native identity security platform for human, non-human and agentic identities.
Why did Paul call cloud security history repeating itself?
In the early data center years, Paul said, people stood up servers and firewalls with default credentials and left them wide open, because of the learning curve of a new technology. Compliance came first, then real attacks, then detection and response. He saw cloud going through the same steps.
What is identity threat detection and response?
Wikipedia describes identity threat detection and response, or ITDR, as a cybersecurity discipline that protects identity management infrastructure from attacks, and notes the gaps between cloud providers' identity and access systems. At launch, Permiso called its product the first of its kind in cloud identity detection and response.
How did Paul and Jason pick Permiso's problem?
Jason Chan, a friend of 20 years and one of their first angel investors, set them on identity. They asked their network what it would solve if it could, and had about 200 customer conversations over 18 months.
When should a startup say no to a customer?
When the customer's requirements are orthogonal to where you want to go, Paul said. A yes can cost six to nine months and a lot of engineering effort, and saying so early respects everyone's time.
How much did Permiso raise?
A $10 million seed round, announced on January 18, 2022 and led by Point72 Ventures, and an $18.5 million Series A, announced on April 3, 2024 and led by Altimeter Capital.
What happened to Permiso after the episode?
Permiso started P0 Labs in June 2022, and its research described LUCR-3, a group that comes in through the identity provider. Permiso won SC Awards in 2025 and 2026, and Okta closed its acquisition of Permiso on August 26, 2026.
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