Podcast Episode 107

Episode 107 28 min

Programming living neurons in Python

with Ewelina Kurtys · FinalSpark

0:00 / 28:00

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Episode 107 of The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley, published November 3, 2026. Host Jon McLachlan talks with Ewelina Kurtys, strategic advisor at FinalSpark and founder of Ekai, about why FinalSpark is trying to build computers out of living neurons, a mission of 1 million times less energy than silicon, the 1 bit of information the team had stored when Jon recorded this, why a product is another 10 years out, why she doesn't see a contest with quantum computing, what Jon expects quantum to do to cryptography, why she thinks biocomputing may not change much for security because the outer layer is silicon, her path from a neuroscience doctorate to startups, how FinalSpark's founders left digital artificial intelligence for neurons, running experiments from Python with electrical and chemical signals, where the neurons come from, a bio server reached like cloud computing, revenue from a lab that scientists rent remotely, keeping neurons alive, the right problem to solve, and being sure about yourself.

Episode notes

FinalSpark is trying to build computers out of living neurons, and Ewelina Kurtys, a strategic advisor there, explains why in terms of energy. Current artificial intelligence systems use a lot of it and are already expensive to run, and she thinks many models are underpriced while they're in their adoption phase, so prices might go up. FinalSpark's mission is a biocomputer that uses 1 million times less energy than silicon.

She's careful about how far along it is. When Jon recorded this, the team had managed to store 1 bit of information, and she puts a final product another 10 years out, because neurons encode information so differently from silicon that the programming has to be worked out from scratch. For now the team writes Python to send the neurons electrical and chemical signals and measure what comes back. The neurons start as stem cells that come from human skin, which she says you can buy commercially and which biomedical research often uses.

Jon suggested it was a contest with quantum computing, and she turned that down, because she thinks they'll be good at different things and that many kinds of hardware will end up complementary. Jon expects quantum to have a huge impact on security, since the traditional asymmetric key algorithms go out the window once there's a powerful enough quantum computer. Asked what biocomputing changes for security, she says it's too early to tell. At least for now, everything in their lab talks to the outside world through silicon, so she thinks maybe not many things change from a security point of view.

Ewelina has a doctorate in neuroscience and moved to London as a postdoctoral researcher before leaving academia for startups. Her first job after that was with a medical imaging company, which is where she learned about artificial intelligence, and she later met FinalSpark's founders, Fred Jordan and Martin Kutter, at a summit on artificial intelligence in London. FinalSpark was founded in 2014. She says the founders did a lot of fundamental research in digital artificial intelligence before realizing that great models cost a lot to make, and that competing there maybe wasn't the best choice for a small independent startup. Their first employee already had experience with living neurons, so they tried programming those and had to learn biology from scratch.

There's also her answer when Jon asks whether there's a problem she'd pay another company to solve, which is that she'd start that company herself, and the advice she'd give her younger self, which is to be more confident.

Hosted by Jon McLachlan — co-founder of YSecurity.

The deep dive

The silicon layer outside

FinalSpark is trying to build computers out of living neurons, aiming for 1 million times less energy than silicon. Ewelina Kurtys told Jon where that stands (1 bit stored, 10 years to a product, Python for now), why she doesn't see a contest with quantum computing, and why she thinks biocomputing changes less for security than you'd expect. Here's the conversation in order, checked against the record, with a quiz, a scorecard for your own product's outer layer, 2 calculators and a timeline.

Seven minutes into episode 107, I asked Ewelina Kurtys what a computer made of living neurons would change for security. I expected a list. She gave me a hedge and a reason.

“maybe not so many things change, because you will always have the silicon layer outside”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 7:34

Listen · Ewelina on episode 107, from 7:12
About 30 seconds: Ewelina on what biocomputing changes for security, from "It's too early" to the silicon layer. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

Ewelina is a strategic advisor at FinalSpark, a Swiss company that’s trying to build computers out of living neurons, and the founder and chief executive of Ekai, her consulting company in the United Kingdom. Episode 107 of The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley aired on November 3, 2026 (Podbean, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube). I hosted this one without Sasha.

The whole conversation, 28 minutes. The 1 bit is at 4:40, her refusal of the quantum contest at 5:29, the security answer at 7:12 and Python at 12:26. Watch on YouTube.

This page follows the conversation in order and checks it against the record: FinalSpark’s own paper and posts, and the press that has visited the lab. For the quantum side it uses the standards bodies. It has 14 figures, 7 clips from the tape, 2 more interviews, the full transcript, and 6 tools: a quiz, a scorecard for the outer layer of your own product, a calculator for what a model price increase does to your margin, a second calculator for what a 10-year product costs to reach, a timeline and a to-do list. Where the machine transcript was unclear, the transcript puts its best guess in square brackets, and this page doesn’t quote those words.

One note on dates. Nobody says on the tape when we recorded, so wherever Ewelina describes where FinalSpark stands, read it as where things stood when I recorded this.

Computers from living neurons

I introduced Ewelina as the founder and chief executive of Ekai. She steered straight to the other job.

“we are trying to build computers from living neurons”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 1:59

Her case for doing something that hard is about energy, and through energy, about cost. In her words, “current AI systems have scalability problem, because they use a lot of energy”, and if nothing changes, “we might have a huge problem of the cost”.

The record backs the first half. The International Energy Agency’s Energy and AI report puts the electricity used by data centres worldwide at 415 terawatt-hours in 2024 and projects 945 by 2030, with artificial intelligence as the major driver (Data Center Dynamics).

A bar chart. 2024: 415 terawatt-hours. 2030, projected: 945 terawatt-hours. Below: "current AI systems have scalability problem, because they use a lot of energy" Ewelina, at 2:14.
Data centre electricity, 2024 and the projection for 2030. Source: the International Energy Agency, via Data Center Dynamics.

The second half is the part a founder should sit with. Ewelina thinks the price you pay for a model today doesn’t reflect what it costs to run.

“many models are underpriced, because they are during the adoption phase”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 2:33

She expects that to end: “we can expect that these prices might grow in the future”. She isn’t alone. In March 2026, Axios ran a piece headlined “Don’t get used to cheap AI,” reporting that OpenAI was projected to burn $14 billion in 2026 and quoting Writer’s chief executive, May Habib, on what the labs will do once they’re public companies: “they’re going to raise prices because they have to” (Axios).

If your gross margin depends on today’s price per token, that’s a risk you can put a number on. The calculator below takes your monthly model bill and your revenue and shows what a price increase does to the share of revenue you hand to a model provider. We wrote about the other end of the same problem, an agent that runs up a bill by itself, in Too Fancy.

1 million times less

Then she named the target.

“which will use 1 million time less energy than silicon. That’s the mission.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 3:13

I’d heard the comparison behind it before, and I said so on the tape: “a human brain generates almost no heat and has just incredible, immense computing power”. The paper that Ewelina co-wrote with FinalSpark’s founders gives it numbers. A human brain runs “86 billion neurons while consuming only 20 W of power” (Frontiers in Artificial Intelligence, May 2, 2024).

1 million times: less energy than silicon. FinalSpark's mission, in Ewelina's words at 3:14. A target and not a result. 20 watts: is what a human brain runs on, with about 86 billion neurons, in the Neuroplatform paper she co-wrote. 1 bit: is what the team had managed to store when Jon recorded this. FinalSpark first reported it in February 2023.
The target, the benchmark behind it and where the work stood on the tape. Sources: the episode, the Neuroplatform paper and FinalSpark's blog.

Two things keep that number honest. Ewelina called it the mission, which makes it a goal. And the comparison is between neurons and processors. A working system also has to keep the neurons alive. When The Register covered a FinalSpark demonstration in October 2024, the developer behind it, Daniel Burger, said the comparison still leaves out “supporting hardware like incubators and electrical stimulation systems” (The Register).

Skeptics ask the question more bluntly. When the field got its name, a Hacker News reader put it in 10 words.

"Are neurons really more efficient at computing than transistors?"

fvdessen, on Hacker News, March 4, 2024

Nobody can answer that for a full system yet, and Ewelina didn’t claim to. What she said next is the reason I trust the rest of her answers.

1 bit, and 10 years

I asked how far the technology is from a proof of concept. She didn’t oversell it.

“Currently we are at the stage where we managed to store one bit of information”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 4:37

Listen · Ewelina on episode 107, from 4:37
About 25 seconds: Ewelina on where the work stood when I recorded this, 1 bit of information, and why neurons are so hard to program. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

That was the state of things when I recorded this. FinalSpark first reported the milestone on its own blog on February 10, 2023, writing that it could “reliably modify the network responses to store one bit of information” (FinalSpark). The lab has done more since. Its 2024 paper describes more than 1,000 organoids tested and 18 terabytes of recordings. In October 2024 a developer used the platform to steer a simulated butterfly. In July 2025, National Geographic reported that a University of Bristol team had used FinalSpark’s organoids to read Braille characters with 83% accuracy (National Geographic).

None of that is a product, and she said how long she thinks a product will take: “it will take us another 10 years to build a final product”. Her reason is that everything a programmer knows about silicon stops applying.

“So we have to figure out from scratch totally new approach”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 5:01

3 cards. Silicon: Logic gates. A signal is there or it isn't. Decades of programming languages and tools sit on top. Living neurons, filled: Electrical and chemical signals. The encoding of information is different, so the programming has to be figured out from scratch. Quantum: Different hardware again, and the same problem. She says the quantum field is older and more advanced. Below: "So we have to figure out from scratch totally new approach" Ewelina, at 5:01.
Why it takes 10 years: new hardware means the programming starts over. From the tape.

She has put it more sharply elsewhere. At a Neurofounders webinar in May 2026 she said, “Nobody knows how neurons encode information” (Neurofounders). A founder who says that in public, with a 10-year estimate attached, is doing the opposite of a hype cycle.

No contest with quantum

She’d compared the problem to quantum computing, which also has to work out its programming from scratch on new hardware. I jumped on it: “It sounds like the race is on quantum versus biocomputing.”

“Oh no, no, I don’t say so.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 5:29

Listen · Ewelina on episode 107, from 5:29
About 35 seconds: Ewelina turns down the contest with quantum computing and says what each kind of hardware might be good for. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

She’d only meant that both are new hardware. She expects the 2 to be used for different things. Quantum is very fast, so she thinks it will probably be good for cryptography, and she added a line I wish more guests would use: “I’m not an expert here.” Biocomputers are slower and, in her view, good for complex operations, maybe generative artificial intelligence.

“there will be many different technologies, different hardware in the future, and they will be complementary.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 6:08

2 cards. Quantum, in her words: Very fast. Probably good for cryptography. She adds that she isn't an expert here. Biocomputers, in her words, filled: Not so fast, and good for complex operations. Maybe generative artificial intelligence. Below: "Oh no, no, I don't say so." Ewelina, at 5:29. "there will be many different technologies, different hardware in the future, and they will be complementary." Ewelina, at 6:08.
Her view of what each kind of hardware is for. From the tape.

I closed the episode on the same thought, that this is “not competing at all with what’s coming in terms of quantum”. For a security leader, the practical version is that the 2 technologies put different questions on your desk, on different timelines. Quantum’s question has dates on it already.

What quantum does to security

This was my turn to make a claim.

“I think quantum computing is going to have a huge impact on the security community because of its implications for cryptography.”

Jon McLachlan, at 6:29

The algorithms I meant are the asymmetric ones that agree keys and sign things: RSA and Diffie-Hellman, along with the elliptic-curve family. A large enough quantum computer breaks them, and as I put it, “they’re going to go out the window”. Ewelina’s guess that quantum will be “good for cryptography” lands on the same fact from the other side.

Here’s what the record says, with the sources in our post on harvest now, decrypt later. The replacement algorithms exist: the National Institute of Standards and Technology finalized its first 3 post-quantum standards on August 13, 2024. Google’s security leadership set 2029 as the target for its own migration. The institute’s draft transition plan would deprecate today’s common RSA and elliptic-curve strengths after 2030 and disallow quantum-vulnerable public-key algorithms after 2035.

A timeline. Aug 13, 2024, filled: The replacements exist. The National Institute of Standards and Technology finalizes its first 3 post-quantum standards. 2029: Google's own target. In March 2026 its security leadership set 2029 for its migration. After 2030: Deprecated. The institute's draft transition plan stops recommending RSA and elliptic-curve algorithms at today's common strengths. After 2035, filled: Disallowed. The same draft retires quantum-vulnerable public-key algorithms.
The dates on the move away from today's public-key algorithms. Sources are in our post on harvest now, decrypt later.

The date nobody has is the day a quantum computer can do it. You don’t need that date to act, because an attacker can record your encrypted traffic today and decrypt it later. Michele Mosca’s inequality turns that into arithmetic.

3 cards. x: The years your data must stay secret. y: The years your migration will take. z, filled: The years until a quantum computer breaks today's public-key algorithms. If x plus y is greater than z, data you send today is already exposed, because it can be recorded now and decrypted later. Nobody knows z, so the planning starts with x and y.
Mosca's inequality. If the years your data must stay secret plus the years your migration takes exceed the years until a quantum computer arrives, the data is already exposed.

For a founder, this shows up in a sales cycle before it shows up in an attack. A buyer in government, defense, health or finance will ask what your plan is, and “we’re waiting to see” reads badly in a security questionnaire. Kevin Kane went deep on all of it in episode 96. That page has a scorecard for quantum readiness and a calculator that runs Mosca’s inequality on your numbers, so this one doesn’t repeat them. Kevin was also on 3 years earlier, in episode 32.

The outer layer is silicon

Then I asked the question this page opened with: does biocomputing have a more direct impact on security? Her first answer was about time.

“I think this is very long, very long perspective. It’s too early.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 7:13

Her second was about architecture. In FinalSpark’s lab, “everything is interfaced with the silicon”, so “the outer layer is silicon, or generally electronics”. Whatever the neurons do, the outside world reaches them through ordinary computers.

I think she’s right, and the paper shows what that outer layer is made of. Researchers reach the Neuroplatform through a Python library and notebooks, over remote access, with the recordings kept in a database. Several outside groups share the same lab. An attacker looking at that sees credentials, an interface and a multi-tenant service, the things a security review already knows how to ask about.

2 cards. Outside: electronics: A Python interface, notebooks, remote access and a database of recordings, as the Neuroplatform paper describes them. The familiar questions apply. Inside: living neurons, filled: Organoids that live about 100 days. The interface also drives pumps and lights, so a bad command costs more than data. Below: "maybe not so many things change, because you will always have the silicon layer outside" Ewelina, at 7:34.
Where a security review of a biocomputer lands today. The cards are our reading of the Neuroplatform paper.

One thing is different, and it’s worth a founder’s attention even if you never touch a neuron. The same interface that reads the recordings also drives pumps and lights in a lab full of living tissue, and the paper says an organoid lasts about 100 days. A bad write to a database costs you data, where a bad command here can cost you the hardware, and the hardware takes months to grow. If your product’s interface can change something in the physical world, the questions about who can write, and what gets logged, weigh more than the questions about who can read. We made the same argument about agents in Are You Actually Going to Give the Agent Write Access?. The scorecard below turns this section into 8 questions about your own product.

Our own post about this episode took her answer to the buyer’s side of the table.

YSecurity's post for episode 107: her security answer, and what an enterprise buyer asks about an artificial intelligence product.

YSecurity · November 3, 2026
Our announcement of the episode. View on LinkedIn.

The point in that post holds for any new technology you sell. The buyer’s security team asks the familiar questions and the new ones, and for an artificial intelligence product the first new one is whether their data ever trains a model. We collected the rest in The 10 AI Security Questions Your First Enterprise Buyer Will Ask in 2027.

How she got here

Ewelina came to all this from biology. On the tape: “I did a PhD in neuroscience”, then London as a postdoc, which she called a “perfect place to leave academia”.

Her LinkedIn fills in the dates. She was a doctorate researcher at the University Medical Center Groningen from September 2011 to December 2015, working on brain imaging, and a postdoctoral researcher at King’s College London from September 2016 to September 2018 (LinkedIn). King’s still lists her papers, on imaging cancer immunotherapy and, in 2019, on engineering human induced pluripotent stem cells so they can be traced in the body (King’s College London). The cells FinalSpark’s neurons come from are the same kind.

Her first job outside academia was with a medical imaging company, and it’s where the other half of her career started: “this is how I learned about AI”. She began going to conferences, and at one of them, a summit on artificial intelligence in London, she met FinalSpark’s founders.

A timeline. Sep 2011: A doctorate in Groningen. Brain imaging at the University Medical Center Groningen, through December 2015. Sep 2016: King's College London. Postdoctoral researcher, imaging of cancer immunotherapy, through September 2018. Sep 2018: Medical imaging for drug development. Scientific project officer at IAG, Image Analysis Group, in London. On the tape, this is where she learned about artificial intelligence. Jul 2021, filled: FinalSpark. Strategic advisor. She met the founders at a summit on artificial intelligence in London. Jan 2022: Ekai. Founder and chief executive of her consulting company in the United Kingdom. May 2, 2024, filled: The Neuroplatform paper. Co-author, with Fred Jordan and Martin Kutter, in Frontiers in Artificial Intelligence. Oct 2, 2026: GOTO Copenhagen. Her talk on biocomputers, when living neurons become hardware. Nov 3, 2026, filled: Episode 107. Ewelina on this show, with Jon.
Ewelina's path. Sources: her LinkedIn, her site, the Neuroplatform paper, GOTO Copenhagen and the tape.

Since then she has built Ekai, her own company, and she’s a named author on the paper that introduced FinalSpark’s platform to the research world. Her site says she has recorded more than 100 online interviews. This one is the first, as far as I know, where the host mostly wanted to know about threat models.

How FinalSpark started

FinalSpark is older than most people guess. Ewelina dated it for me: “FinalSpark was founded in 2014.” The founders, Fred Jordan and Martin Kutter, are entrepreneurs in Switzerland with backgrounds in applied mathematics and engineering, and what they wanted, long before chatbots, was a machine you could have a conversation with. Her words: “they wanted to build thinking machine”.

They started where everyone starts, with digital artificial intelligence. Then they did the math on what it would take to win there.

“that’s maybe not the best race for a small independent startup.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 11:12

Listen · Ewelina on episode 107, from 11:06
About 40 seconds: Ewelina on why FinalSpark's founders left digital artificial intelligence, and how living neurons came up. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

So they looked for something more disruptive. Their first employee had some experience with living neurons, and the founders’ reaction, as she tells it, was “let’s try living neurons, let’s try to program them”. What followed is my favorite line in the episode: “They had to learn biology from the scratch.”

5 numbered steps. 1: 2014: Fred Jordan and Martin Kutter, entrepreneurs in Switzerland, want to build a thinking machine. 2: They do a lot of fundamental research in digital artificial intelligence. 3: They realize it costs a lot to make great models, and that competing there maybe isn't the best choice for a small independent startup. 4: Their first employee already has some experience with living neurons, so they try to program those. 5: They learn biology from scratch. Today the team has biologists too. Below: "that's maybe not the best race for a small independent startup." Ewelina, at 11:13.
The founding story in 5 steps, as Ewelina told it.

There’s a lesson here for any founder watching the model labs spend. When the main contest in your market costs more than you can raise, a small company’s advantage is being willing to do something the big ones won’t. It took FinalSpark 10 years to get from that decision to a paper and a platform that outside scientists could use.

FinalSpark announcing the Neuroplatform, 10 years after the company was founded. View on X.

Python, for now

I asked whether they’d named the programming language yet. The answer gave the episode its title.

“you write a code in Python, and you can execute experiments on living neurons.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 12:39

Listen · Ewelina on episode 107, from 12:39
About 25 seconds: Ewelina on running experiments on living neurons from Python, and the 2 kinds of signal neurons understand. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

Everything in the lab is connected to a computer. From Python you can send the neurons electrical signals and measure the response. You can send chemical signals too. She has a nice way of putting why both matter.

“neurons understand this two language, let’s say, those two languages of chemical and electrical signals.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 12:52

I pushed on what the data looks like. Computers are digital, and a neuron isn’t. “Is it analog?” I asked. It is, and it doesn’t stay that way for long: the signals “are transformed through analog to digital converter to the digital data”, and a computer does the analysis. The Neuroplatform paper gives the plumbing: 8 electrodes for each organoid and 4 organoids on each array, with recordings sampled at 30 kilohertz.

5 numbered steps. 1: Write code in Python. Everything in the lab is connected to a computer. 2: Send the neurons electrical signals through electrodes, or chemical signals. 3: Measure the response. The neuronal signal is analog. 4: An analog to digital converter turns it into data, and a computer analyzes it. 5: Look for patterns in the data, change the stimulation and run it again. Below: "neurons understand this two language, let's say, those two languages of chemical and electrical signals." Ewelina, at 12:52.
One experiment on the Neuroplatform, as Ewelina described it. The electrode counts are from the paper.

The hard part comes after the recording. When I asked how you represent data with biology, she said that for the moment it’s “data science and mathematics”, and “You have to figure out some patterns in the data.” I described it back to her as setting an initial state, letting it run and doing it again and again. She agreed.

Python is where this stands today. She was clear that it won’t be where it ends: “definitely we will need new way of programming”, because neurons “work in a different way than logic gates in silicon”.

If you’d like to hear the founders’ side of the same story, Fred Jordan walks through the lab in this interview from 2024.

Fred Jordan, FinalSpark's co-founder, on the Ones Changing The World channel, July 7, 2024, 51 minutes. A third-party interview, not ours. Watch on YouTube.

Building blocks of a brain

I asked how FinalSpark’s work relates to the companies that put electrodes into people’s heads. Her answer drew a line I found useful. Those companies want to interact with a living human brain, which FinalSpark has no plans to do.

“We actually only use the building blocks of human brain, which are living neurons”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 15:35

In her description, the team builds “a different structure than brain” in the lab, out of the same parts. She allowed that the methods FinalSpark develops for talking to neurons might be useful to the implant companies someday, and she was plain about the limit: “that’s not our objective.”

Where the neurons come from

This was the question I most wanted to ask, and the answer was shorter than I expected.

“Neurons come from stem cells, and stem cells come from human skin.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 16:17

She added the context right away: “You can buy such a stem cells commercially.” It’s an established process in biomedical research, and in her words FinalSpark copies “what biologists are doing”. The process has a name, induced pluripotent stem cells, and the scientist who discovered it, Shinya Yamanaka, shared a Nobel Prize for it in 2012 (Wikipedia).

The press that has visited the lab adds the dimensions. Scientific American describes each organoid as about half a millimeter wide and made of about 10,000 neurons, connected to 8 electrodes, and living about 100 days (Scientific American).

5 numbered steps. 1: Human skin cells are turned into stem cells. Ewelina says you can buy such stem cells commercially. 2: Stem cells are grown into neurons, an established process in biomedical research. 3: The neurons form an organoid about half a millimeter wide, with about 10,000 neurons. 4: Each organoid sits on 8 electrodes that stimulate it and record from it. 5: An organoid lives about 100 days and is then replaced. Below: "Neurons come from stem cells, and stem cells come from human skin." Ewelina, at 16:17.
From skin to an organoid. Steps 1 and 2 are from the tape, the rest from Scientific American and the paper.

There’s a question in here that a buyer’s questionnaire will get to eventually, in any business that works with human cells: where the cells came from, and under what consent. Cells carry a donor’s genome, and genetic data is the kind that has to stay private for a lifetime. I didn’t ask Ewelina about FinalSpark’s suppliers and she didn’t say, so take this as a note for your own vendor reviews. It’s the same shelf-life thinking as the quantum section, applied to a different kind of secret.

A bio server in 10 years

I asked her to predict, knowing it’s too early to predict. She did it anyway.

“we aim to build a bio server, a huge computer which will be available remotely, the same way as cloud computing today”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 17:02

She imagines that in about 10 years, and she’s careful about it: “of course it’s a long-term project”. I asked what investors ask. Everything, she said, and then named the hard one.

“usually many investors would like to see the results very quickly. But this is not a quick project.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 18:22

What makes the wait survivable is that the lab itself is a product. When I recorded this, FinalSpark was already making some revenue from it, because “scientists from all over the world can access our lab, and they can do experiments remotely on living neurons”. I called it “providing experiments as a service”, and she agreed. The press has tracked the price: Scientific American reported $500 a month in 2024, with 9 institutions given access, and National Geographic reported $1,000 a month in July 2025.

A timeline. 2024: $500 a month. Scientific American reports the Neuroplatform can be rented over the internet, with 9 institutions given access. Jul 2025: $1,000 a month. National Geographic's figure for running experiments remotely on the organoids. On the tape, filled: Some revenue already. Scientists from all over the world can access the lab remotely. Ewelina says it isn't the final product. In 10 years: A bio server. Her estimate for a computer available remotely, the same way as cloud computing today.
Revenue on the way to the product. Sources: Scientific American, National Geographic and the tape.

Founders building anything slow should notice the shape of that. FinalSpark built a lab to do its own research, then rented the lab to other researchers. The tool you had to build for yourself is often the first thing someone else will pay for. The second calculator shows what that revenue is worth over 10 years. We wrote about why this kind of company can’t be rushed in What Is Deep Tech?, and Roei Ganzarski made a similar case from the hardware side in episode 103.

FinalSpark has company in the field. Cortical Labs in Australia sells a unit called the CL1 for $35,000, with about 800,000 neurons kept alive for up to 6 months (IEEE Spectrum). Researchers at Johns Hopkins gave the field its name, organoid intelligence, in 2023.

3 cards. FinalSpark, Switzerland, filled: A lab reached remotely. Organoids of about 10,000 neurons that live about 100 days. Cortical Labs, Australia: The CL1, a unit sold for $35,000 with about 800,000 neurons kept alive for up to 6 months. Johns Hopkins, United States: Researchers there named the field organoid intelligence in 2023.
3 ways into the same field. Sources: Scientific American, IEEE Spectrum and National Geographic.

Ewelina tells the long version of the FinalSpark story in this interview.

Ewelina on The AI Space Podcast, October 3, 2025, 54 minutes. A third-party interview, not ours. Watch on YouTube.

Food and water

I asked whether a biocomputer needs a battery, thinking about the electronics. Her answer was about the other half of the machine.

“living cells always need food and water”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 19:46

The neurons have to be kept at the right temperature and fed, and they sit in a special liquid that the lab calls medium. An operations person hears that and thinks about uptime. A processor that needs feeding has a maintenance window built in, and the paper’s figure of about 100 days for an organoid means the hardware gets replaced on a schedule.

I asked what legacy she’d like to leave. She laughed it off, and then answered: “I think we just try to make a world a better place.”

The right problem to solve

A lot of founders listen to this show, so I asked a leading question. Is there a problem in the lab so painful she’d pay another company to solve it? I was hoping for a startup idea to hand to the audience.

“If I would have such a problem, I would set up a company and do this.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 21:43

Listen · Ewelina on episode 107, from 21:43
About 35 seconds: Ewelina on what she'd do with a problem worth paying for, and why finding the right problem is the hard part. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

All I could say was “Okay, that’s fair. That is fair.” Then she said the thing underneath it.

“searching the right problem to solve is, I would say, one of the biggest challenge in life.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 22:06

Her point is that building has become easy. With so many tools, she said, it’s “so easy to do stuff actually now”. Knowing what to build is where the difficulty went. Every founder I talk to who’s shipping with coding agents says some version of this, and we argued it at length in The Art and Zen of Adopting AI.

Below: "If I would have such a problem, I would set up a company and do this." Ewelina, at 21:43, when Jon asked whether there's a problem she'd pay another company to solve. "searching the right problem to solve is, I would say, one of the biggest challenge in life." Ewelina, at 22:06. "Today I'm still not sure about things around me, but I am sure about myself." Ewelina, at 23:03.
3 things she said that aren't about neurons. From the tape.

Sure about myself

I asked what she’d tell her younger self. She’d tell her to be more confident, and the way she said it stayed with me.

“Today I’m still not sure about things around me, but I am sure about myself.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 23:03

Research works that way, and so does starting a company. The world stays uncertain, and what you can settle is how you’ll act.

I asked why she got her doctorate. She’d always wanted to be a scientist, she said, and to be in interesting conversations, and the degree opened the door. She likes what the title allows: “when you are a scientist you can do a little bit crazy stuff”. And she likes hard problems for their own sake.

“I like to teasing my brain, you know, just to have some, something to, some problem to solve.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 24:11

The philosophical question

For her last word she sent listeners to finalspark.com, and said the subject can be discussed “from engineering point of view, from scientific point of view, or also philosophical”.

I hadn’t thought about that last one, and I asked the obvious version. If you can turn neurons into a computer, what’s the difference between that and a human?

“Oh, I think there is huge difference, because we just using building blocks of brain, which are neurons.”

Ewelina Kurtys, at 25:31

An organoid is far from how a brain is structured, she said, and then she granted the other side: “But for some people look similar.”

The field takes that seriously. Lena Smirnova, the Johns Hopkins researcher whose group named organoid intelligence, told National Geographic, “we’re proceeding with a lot of care and thoughtfulness.” Brett Kagan of Cortical Labs said at the Neurofounders webinar, “Our first scientific paper is an ethics paper.” I’m glad the people closest to the work are the ones raising it.

All of this compute

I ended on a thought I still haven’t finished.

“I’m not sure what we’re going to do with all of this compute once it gets here.”

Jon McLachlan, at 26:44

Listen · Jon on episode 107, from 26:31
About 25 seconds: Jon on a future of cheap and plentiful compute, and what nobody knows yet. The clip stops on its own. Read the full transcript.

Two episodes ago, Jesse Anglen and I talked about the cost of writing software, and the cost of breaking in, heading toward zero (episode 106). If Ewelina’s mission works, the cost of running the software follows. Cheap compute helps whoever has a use for it, and attackers always have a use for it. I read that as a reason to get the boring parts of your security in order while compute is still expensive, and no reason at all to fear the lab in Vevey.

After the tape

The episode aired on November 3, 2026. A month earlier, on October 2, Ewelina spoke at GOTO Copenhagen on biocomputers and what happens when living neurons become hardware (GOTO Copenhagen). GOTO’s podcast also has her in conversation with Charles Humble on the state of the art of biological computing (GOTO).

On November 7, 4 days after the episode aired, FinalSpark announced a webinar with Ewelina and Fred Jordan for November 27, 2026, at 16:30 Central European Time. If this page left you with questions for the people who run the lab, bring them there.

FinalSpark's webinar with Ewelina Kurtys and Fred Jordan, November 27, 2026, at 16:30 Central European Time.

FinalSpark · November 7, 2026
FinalSpark's announcement. View on LinkedIn.

Did you catch it? A 7-question quiz

Quiz · 7 questions

Did you catch it?

Pick an answer to see whether you caught it.

  1. How much information had FinalSpark's team managed to store when Jon recorded this?

    1. 1 kilobyte
    2. 1 bit
    3. Nothing yet

    b. "we managed to store one bit of information" Transcript, 4:39.

  2. What is FinalSpark's mission for energy use?

    1. 1 million times less than silicon
    2. Half of what silicon uses
    3. The same as a laptop

    a. "1 million time less energy than silicon. That's the mission." It's a target, and she said so. Transcript, 3:14.

  3. What did Ewelina say when Jon called it a race between quantum and biocomputing?

    1. That biocomputing will win
    2. That quantum is 10 years behind
    3. That she doesn't say so

    c. "Oh no, no, I don't say so." She expects different hardware to be complementary. Transcript, 5:29.

  4. What does the team write its experiments in, for the moment?

    1. A new language made for neurons
    2. Python
    3. Assembly

    b. "for the moment we use Python" She expects neurons to need a new way of programming later. Transcript, 12:26.

  5. Where do FinalSpark's neurons come from?

    1. Stem cells that come from human skin
    2. Donated brain tissue
    3. Lab animals

    a. "Neurons come from stem cells, and stem cells come from human skin." Transcript, 16:17.

  6. Why does Ewelina think biocomputing may not change much for security?

    1. Neurons can't be attacked
    2. Nobody will connect one to a network
    3. The outer layer is silicon

    c. "you will always have the silicon layer outside" She also said it's too early to tell. Transcript, 7:38.

  7. What would she do with a problem she'd pay another company to solve?

    1. Set up a company and solve it
    2. Hire a consultant
    3. Wait for a vendor

    a. "I would set up a company and do this." Transcript, 21:45.

Is your outer layer ready for a security review?

Scorecard · 8 questions

Is your outer layer ready for a security review?

Answer for your product as it runs today, whatever the new part inside it is. If 2 answers fit, pick the lower one.

  1. Do you have a list of every way into your product from outside?

    • No list
    • The main ones
    • An inventory we keep current

    Application interfaces and remote access count, and so does the admin console nobody mentions. The outside world reaches the new part through these. See The outer layer is silicon.

  2. Do you know which of those can change something physical or hard to replace?

    • We haven't looked
    • Roughly
    • Listed, with who can use each one

    In FinalSpark's lab, the interface that reads the recordings also drives pumps and lights. A bad command there costs months of growing.

  3. Are writes held to a higher bar than reads?

    • The same credentials do both
    • Separate in some places
    • Separate roles, and every write is logged

    See Are You Actually Going to Give the Agent Write Access?

  4. If customers share your platform, has anyone tested that one can't reach another's work?

    • Not tested
    • Tested by us
    • Tested by someone outside the team

    Several research groups share the Neuroplatform, which makes a lab a multi-tenant service. Our penetration testing covers the walls between tenants.

  5. Do you know where your most sensitive inputs came from, and under what consent?

    • No
    • For most of them
    • Documented for each source

    For FinalSpark that's cells. For you it may be the data a model was trained on. See Where the neurons come from.

  6. Have you worked out what a model price increase does to your margin?

    • No
    • A rough idea
    • Yes, and we know the multiple we'd survive

    Run your numbers in the calculator.

  7. Do you have a written answer for a buyer who asks about your post-quantum plan?

    • No
    • We'd say we're waiting
    • Written, with dates

    The dates are in What quantum does to security. For the cryptography itself, episode 96 has its own scorecard.

  8. Does one person own the answers to a buyer's security review?

    • Nobody
    • Whoever is free that week
    • A named owner

    The familiar questions come first and the new ones follow. We collected the new ones in The 10 AI Security Questions Your First Enterprise Buyer Will Ask in 2027.

Too early to tell

You're where Ewelina says the whole field is: nobody can say yet what changes. Start by listing every way in, and mark the ones that can change something physical.

Layer mapped

You know your outer layer. Next, hold writes to a higher bar than reads, and have someone outside the team test the walls between customers.

Ready for the review

A buyer's security team will find the familiar answers in place. Keep the list current as the product changes, and write down the new answers before they ask.

What if the model price goes up?

Calculator

What if the model price goes up?

3 numbers: what you pay model providers in a month, your revenue in a month, and how many times today's price you want to test.

13%of revenue today
27%of revenue at the new price
$240,000more a year

At 2.0 times today's price, a $20,000 monthly model bill goes from 13% of revenue to 27%, and costs $240,000 more a year.

Every default here is a placeholder: put in your own numbers. Nobody knows whether prices will rise or by how much. Ewelina's view on the tape is that many models are underpriced during the adoption phase. The calculator shows what you'd be exposed to if she's right.

What does a 10-year product cost to reach?

Calculator

What does a 10-year product cost to reach?

3 numbers: how many years until the product, what the company spends in a year, and what it earns in a year on the way there. The money is in millions of dollars.

30.0million dollars spent by the time it ships
17%of that covered by revenue
25.0million dollars left to raise

Over 10 years, spending 3.0 million dollars a year comes to 30.0 million. Revenue of 0.5 million a year covers 17% of it and leaves 25.0 million to raise.

Every default here is a placeholder: put in your own numbers. None of them are FinalSpark's. The arithmetic is flat on purpose, with no growth and no inflation, because the point is the shape. Every dollar earned on the way is a dollar you don't have to raise, and it's the evidence the next investor asks for.

From a thinking machine to a living one

Timeline

From a thinking machine to a living one

  1. Stem cells from adult cells

    Shinya Yamanaka's lab reports induced pluripotent stem cells, the process behind neurons grown from skin (Wikipedia, on this page).

  2. A doctorate in Groningen

    Ewelina starts research on brain imaging at the University Medical Center Groningen (LinkedIn).

  3. FinalSpark is founded

    Fred Jordan and Martin Kutter set out to build a thinking machine (on this page).

  4. King's College London

    Postdoctoral researcher, imaging of cancer immunotherapy, through September 2018 (LinkedIn).

  5. Medical imaging for drug development

    Scientific project officer at IAG, Image Analysis Group, in London, where she learned about artificial intelligence (on this page).

  6. Strategic advisor

    Ewelina joins FinalSpark as a strategic advisor (LinkedIn).

  7. Ekai

    She founds her consulting company in the United Kingdom (LinkedIn).

  8. 1 bit

    FinalSpark reports that it can reliably store 1 bit of information in a network of neurons (FinalSpark, on this page).

  9. Episode 32

    Kevin Kane of American Binary on cryptography and quantum computing (episode page).

  10. The Neuroplatform paper

    Frontiers in Artificial Intelligence publishes the paper, with Ewelina as a co-author (Frontiers).

  11. The platform goes public

    FinalSpark announces remote access to its lab for researchers (X).

  12. Post-quantum standards

    The National Institute of Standards and Technology finalizes its first 3 (the announcement).

  13. A butterfly

    The Register covers a simulated butterfly steered by FinalSpark's organoids (The Register).

  14. A biological computer for sale

    IEEE Spectrum reports on Cortical Labs' CL1 at $35,000 a unit (IEEE Spectrum).

  15. Braille at 83%

    National Geographic reports a Bristol team reading Braille with FinalSpark's organoids, and access at $1,000 a month (National Geographic).

  16. Google picks 2029

    Google's security leadership sets 2029 for its own post-quantum migration (Google).

  17. Cheap models, for now

    Axios reports on the pressure on model providers to raise prices (Axios, on this page).

  18. Biocomputing's commercial phase

    Neurofounders publishes its webinar with Ewelina and Cortical Labs' Brett Kagan (Neurofounders).

  19. Episode 96

    Kevin Kane on harvest now, decrypt later (episode page).

  20. GOTO Copenhagen

    Ewelina's talk on biocomputers (GOTO Copenhagen).

  21. Episode 106

    Jesse Anglen of Ruh.ai on the cost of breaking in (episode page).

  22. Episode 107

    Ewelina on this show, with Jon.

  23. FinalSpark's webinar

    Ewelina and Fred Jordan take questions (LinkedIn).

  24. Google's target

    The year Google set for its own migration (on this page).

  25. Disallowed

    The draft transition plan retires quantum-vulnerable public-key algorithms (the draft plan).

What to do this week

5 things, in the order of the episode.

  1. Price a model increase. Put your monthly model bill and your revenue into the calculator, and decide what multiple you’d survive, as in Computers from living neurons.
  2. List every way into your product. Mark the ones that can change something physical or hard to replace. Then take the scorecard, as in The outer layer is silicon.
  3. Rank your data by how long it has to stay secret. Run the longest one through the Mosca calculator on the episode 96 page. Our harvest now, decrypt later post has the 4-step migration.
  4. Count the revenue on the way. If your product is years out, work out what the tool you built for yourself could earn, in the second calculator, as in A bio server in 10 years.
  5. Write the answer before the buyer asks. Our Product Security work covers the review of your outer layer, and Sales Support puts one of us in the security review with you. We’ll be at MicroConf US in April 2027 talking about turning security commitments into revenue. If you’d like to talk sooner, book 15 minutes with us.

Key takeaways

  1. The mission is 1 million times less energy

    Ewelina Kurtys says FinalSpark wants to build biocomputers from living neurons that use 1 million times less energy than silicon. She calls it the mission. The benchmark behind it is the human brain, which the Neuroplatform paper she co-wrote puts at about 86 billion neurons on 20 watts.

  2. 1 bit stored, and 10 years to a product

    When Jon recorded this, FinalSpark had managed to store 1 bit of information in living neurons, and Ewelina expects a final product to take another 10 years. FinalSpark first reported the 1 bit on its own blog in February 2023.

  3. New hardware means starting from scratch

    Neurons encode information so differently from silicon that the programming has to be worked out from scratch. Ewelina compares it to the problem quantum computing has with its own new hardware, and says that is why it takes so much time.

  4. Many models are underpriced for now

    Ewelina thinks current artificial intelligence systems are already expensive to run and that many models are underpriced while they are in their adoption phase, so prices might grow. A founder whose margin depends on today's price per token can put a number on that risk.

  5. No contest with quantum

    When Jon said the race is on between quantum and biocomputing, Ewelina turned it down. She expects quantum to be very fast and probably good for cryptography, adds that she isn't an expert there, and expects biocomputers to be slower and good at complex operations. She believes many kinds of hardware will be complementary.

  6. Quantum is the one with dates on it

    Jon expects quantum computing to have a huge impact on the security community because of cryptography. The traditional asymmetric key algorithms go out the window once there is a powerful enough quantum computer. The replacement standards were finalized in August 2024, and the migration deadlines are already published.

  7. The outer layer is silicon

    Asked what biocomputing changes for security, Ewelina says it is too early to tell. At least for now, everything in FinalSpark's lab is interfaced with silicon, so she thinks maybe not so many things change, because the system talks to the outside world through that silicon layer.

  8. Python, for now

    For the moment the team writes Python to send neurons electrical and chemical signals and measure the response. Ewelina says it is way too early to talk about a separate language, and that neurons will definitely need a new way of programming, because they don't work like logic gates in silicon.

  9. Revenue on the way to the product

    FinalSpark's lab is available remotely, so scientists from all over the world can run experiments on living neurons, and Ewelina says the company already makes some revenue that way. The long timeline is the biggest challenge in conversations with investors.

  10. The hard part is the right problem

    Asked whether there is a problem she would pay another company to solve, Ewelina says she would set up a company and solve it. With so many tools, she says, it is easy to build. Searching for the right problem to solve is one of the biggest challenges in life.

Chapters

Tap a chapter to play from there. The play icon beside it opens that moment on YouTube.

Pull quotes

“we are trying to build computers from living neurons”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“current AI systems have scalability problem, because they use a lot of energy”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“many models are underpriced, because they are during the adoption phase”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“which will use 1 million time less energy than silicon. That's the mission.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“a human brain generates almost no heat and has just incredible, immense computing power”

Jon McLachlan ·

“Currently we are at the stage where we managed to store one bit of information”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“So we have to figure out from scratch totally new approach”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“It sounds like the race is on quantum versus biocomputing.”

Jon McLachlan ·

“Oh no, no, I don't say so.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“there will be many different technologies, different hardware in the future, and they will be complementary.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“I think quantum computing is going to have a huge impact on the security community because of its implications for cryptography.”

Jon McLachlan ·

“I think this is very long, very long perspective. It's too early.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“maybe not so many things change, because you will always have the silicon layer outside”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“that's maybe not the best race for a small independent startup.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“They had to learn biology from the scratch.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“you write a code in Python, and you can execute experiments on living neurons.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“neurons understand this two language, let's say, those two languages of chemical and electrical signals.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“We actually only use the building blocks of human brain, which are living neurons”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“Neurons come from stem cells, and stem cells come from human skin.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“we aim to build a bio server, a huge computer which will be available remotely, the same way as cloud computing today”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“usually many investors would like to see the results very quickly. But this is not a quick project.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“living cells always need food and water”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“If I would have such a problem, I would set up a company and do this.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“searching the right problem to solve is, I would say, one of the biggest challenge in life.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“Today I'm still not sure about things around me, but I am sure about myself.”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“when you are a scientist you can do a little bit crazy stuff”

Ewelina Kurtys ·

“I'm not sure what we're going to do with all of this compute once it gets here.”

Jon McLachlan ·

About the guest

Ewelina Kurtys, Strategic Advisor, FinalSpark

Dr. Ewelina Kurtys is a strategic advisor at FinalSpark, the Swiss company working on computers built from living neurons, where she has worked on commercialization and partnerships since July 2021, and the founder and chief executive of Ekai, her consulting company in the United Kingdom. She was a doctorate researcher in brain imaging at the University Medical Center Groningen from 2011 to 2015 and a postdoctoral researcher at King's College London from 2016 to 2018, then worked in medical imaging for drug development at IAG, Image Analysis Group, in London. She is a co-author of FinalSpark's 2024 paper on its Neuroplatform and spoke on biocomputers at GOTO Copenhagen in October 2026.

About the host

Jon McLachlan is co-founder of YSecurity, the on-demand cybersecurity team for startups, and of Cyberbase.ai. The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley is hosted by Jon McLachlan and Sasha Sinkevich. Jon McLachlan on LinkedIn ↗

Context and sources

  • Ewelina Kurtys's LinkedIn experience: strategic advisor at FinalSpark from July 2021, founder and chief executive of Ekai Ltd from January 2022, scientific project officer at IAG, Image Analysis Group, from September 2018 to December 2019, postdoctoral researcher at King's College London from September 2016 to September 2018, and doctorate researcher at the University Medical Center Groningen from September 2011 to December 2015. Source ↗
  • Ewelina Kurtys's own site, which describes her as a neuroscientist, entrepreneur and speaker and names Ekai Ltd in its footer. Source ↗
  • King's College London's research portal, listing her papers on imaging cancer immunotherapy and on human induced pluripotent stem cells. Source ↗
  • GOTO Copenhagen 2026: Ewelina Kurtys, strategic advisor on frontier technologies, with the talk Biocomputers: When Living Neurons Become Hardware on October 2, 2026. Source ↗
  • Jordan, Kutter, Comby, Brozzi and Kurtys, Open and remotely accessible Neuroplatform for research in wetware computing, Frontiers in Artificial Intelligence, published May 2, 2024: more than 1,000 organoids tested, 18 terabytes of recordings, 8 electrodes per organoid, a Python interface, and the human brain's 86 billion neurons on 20 watts. Source ↗
  • FinalSpark's blog, February 10, 2023: the Biological Neuroplatform reaches production, and the team reports storing 1 bit of information. Source ↗
  • FinalSpark on X, May 15, 2024: the press release launching its remote research platform using human neurons. Source ↗
  • Scientific American, These Living Computers Are Made from Human Neurons: the Neuroplatform rented for $500 a month, 9 institutions given access, organoids of about 10,000 neurons that live about 100 days. Source ↗
  • National Geographic, July 17, 2025: access to the Neuroplatform at $1,000 a month, a University of Bristol team reading Braille at 83% accuracy with FinalSpark's organoids, and Lena Smirnova of Johns Hopkins on organoid intelligence. Source ↗
  • The Register, October 22, 2024: a simulated butterfly steered by FinalSpark's organoids, and the caveat that the energy comparison leaves out incubators and stimulation systems. Source ↗
  • IEEE Spectrum, June 3, 2025: Cortical Labs' CL1 at $35,000 a unit, about 800,000 neurons kept alive for up to 6 months. Source ↗
  • Neurofounders, May 13, 2026, Inside biocomputing's early commercial phase: a webinar with Ewelina Kurtys and Brett Kagan of Cortical Labs. Source ↗
  • Data Center Dynamics on the International Energy Agency's Energy and AI report: data centres used 415 terawatt-hours in 2024, projected to reach 945 by 2030. Source ↗
  • Axios, March 12, 2026, Don't get used to cheap AI: OpenAI projected to burn $14 billion in 2026, and the pressure on model providers to raise prices. Source ↗
  • The National Institute of Standards and Technology, August 13, 2024: the first 3 finalized post-quantum encryption standards. Source ↗
  • The National Institute of Standards and Technology's draft report IR 8547, the transition plan that deprecates quantum-vulnerable algorithms after 2030 and disallows them after 2035. Source ↗
  • Google's security leadership setting 2029 as the target for its own post-quantum migration. Source ↗
  • Wikipedia on induced pluripotent stem cells, the process behind neurons grown from skin cells, and Shinya Yamanaka's 2012 Nobel Prize. Source ↗
  • FinalSpark on LinkedIn, November 7, 2026: a webinar with Ewelina Kurtys and Fred Jordan on November 27, 2026. Source ↗
  • Hacker News, March 4, 2024: readers on the announcement of organoid intelligence as a field. Source ↗
  • Episode 107 on YouTube: 107. Can you build a computer out of living neurons? (with Ewelina Kurtys). Source ↗

Transcript

Generated automatically from the episode audio and edited for names, terms, punctuation and readability, with the sponsor messages left out. Jon McLachlan hosts this episode with Ewelina Kurtys of FinalSpark. Speaker labels were assigned from the content, so a few short lines may sit with the wrong speaker. Ewelina's sentences are kept as she said them. Words in square brackets are best guesses where the machine transcript was unclear. Timestamps match the player above and the YouTube video. If a line matters to you, check it against the audio.

Read the full transcript 3,672 words

[Sponsor message from YSecurity]

Jon McLachlan

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley. I'm your host, Jon McLachlan, and today we have an amazing guest, Ewelina Kurtys. Welcome to the show.

Ewelina Kurtys

Hello. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Jon McLachlan

You are a serial entrepreneur, and at the moment you are the founder and CEO of...

Ewelina Kurtys

Ekai, my consulting company based in the UK.

Jon McLachlan

Amazing. Amazing. Help us understand, like, what you do.

Ewelina Kurtys

So actually I wanted to talk today about FinalSpark, where I'm a strategic advisor. Yes. And we are trying to build computers from living neurons, which is very exciting topic of deep technology. This is a new direction in computing hardware. We see that current AI systems have scalability problem, because they use a lot of energy, and we can expect that in the future, if we continue with the current status quo, we might have a huge problem of the cost. We already have a problem, because it's already expensive. And many models are underpriced, because they are during the adoption phase. For example, if you use ChatGPT, you pay not that much. You may even use it for free, because this is adoption phase. But in reality is much more expensive. So we can expect that these prices might grow in the future, considering the cost currently. So this is why it's so important to think how we can figure out artificial intelligence which will use less energy, and FinalSpark is doing this. We want to be build biocomputers from living neurons, which will use 1 million time less energy than silicon. That's the mission. Yes.

Jon McLachlan

Wow. I love it. And I've heard this before, and the rough, like, analogy that I've heard that just has blown my mind is, imagine all of the CPUs and, you know, the energy required to power a traditional computer that runs on electricity, runs on, you know, just old infrastructure essentially, and compare that to a human brain. And a human brain generates almost no heat and has just incredible, immense computing power. Do you imagine, like, how much compute is actually going on inside of a human brain? And how little energy it takes to actually achieve those very high level computations. If you want to call them computations, because they're just neurons firing, right?

Ewelina Kurtys

Yeah, exactly. But it's [a computation]. I think it's processing information.

Jon McLachlan

Yes, it is, definitely. Well, I hope it's processing. For the most part, it's processing information. So what do you, how far is this technology away from being, you know, the proof of concept? How, where is it? What's the state of the art right now?

Ewelina Kurtys

So we are early stage startup. We think that it will take us another 10 years to build a final product. Currently we are at the stage where we managed to store one bit of information, and this is still a big challenge to work with neurons, because they work in totally different way than silicon. So the encoding of information is different. So the way how you would program them would also be different, everything actually. So we have to figure out from scratch totally new approach, and this is actually the same problem as we observe in quantum computing, where you have different hardware. So you have to figure out everything again from scratch, and it will work for sure differently than silicon. So this is the biggest challenge, and that's why it takes so much time.

Jon McLachlan

It sounds like the race is on quantum versus biocomputing.

Ewelina Kurtys

Oh no, no, I don't say so. [No,] I just said quantum because it's similar situation. It's new technology, new hardware. Oh, that's what is common. But actually the applications, I think, would be different, because quantum is very fast. So I think probably will be good for cryptography. I'm not an expert here. But biocomputers are not so fast, but they are good for complex operations. So maybe generative AI. So I think the applications will be different, and I generally believe that there will be many different technologies, different hardware in the future, and they will be complementary. So we definitely with quantum also, because quantum field is actually older, 15 years longer, so I think it will be difficult to compete. They are more advanced, definitely more things have been done.

Jon McLachlan

I think quantum computing is going to have a huge impact on the security community because of its implications for cryptography. All of those asymmetric key algorithms, the traditional ones at least, they're going to go out the window as soon as we have powerful, large, [unclear] quantum computing. But how about for biocomputing? For biocomputing, is it going to, I mean, it gives us access to cheap and plentiful AI, to inference perhaps. Maybe it will have an impact on how we train as well, just accelerating everything. Will it have a more direct impact on security community that you could see?

Ewelina Kurtys

On security? I think this is very long, very long perspective. It's too early. And I generally think that at least now in our lab everything is interfaced with the silicon. So at the end the outer layer is silicon, or generally electronics. So I really believe that from the security perspective maybe not so many things change, because you will always have the silicon layer outside [in] the communication.

Jon McLachlan

Yeah, I get that. So how long have you been associated with [FinalSpark]?

Ewelina Kurtys

Actually, I stopped counting. I stopped counting, but I work with them around six years, but not always was working on FinalSpark. The same founders have also another company, which is digital, and we also did some projects there together.

Jon McLachlan

Amazing.

Ewelina Kurtys

So I know the project since six years, but since maybe three or four I am much more involved [than] previously.

Jon McLachlan

No, that's great. That's great to be involved. I'm super curious, how, what's the story of how you connected with these founders? They must really have left a deep impression.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes. So I come from biology field, let's say. I did a PhD in neuroscience, that was purely biological topic, and after my PhD I moved to London as a postdoc, and that was perfect place to leave academia, because London is full of opportunities, and a lot of networking opportunities also. So I left academia, I started to work with startups, I discovered that it's best place for me is a small company. So my first job was actually, because I was specialized with medical imaging, I was doing brain imaging, neuroscience on the imaging side, so I worked with the company which was doing imaging service. And they talk a lot about AI, of course, because imaging, actually medical imaging, is a lot, there are a lot of innovations on how to use, how to analyze data, especially if you have big volume of data, with AI. And then this is how I learned about AI, and I started to go for some conferences, and I realized that actually you can do much more than imaging with AI, that it's much broader field, and I've become fascinated with that. And later I started to work on broad applications of, on commercial applications of AI, not just imaging as initially. And I met the founders of FinalSpark on actually one of the London summit about AI, and then I started to work with them on some projects, also including FinalSpark.

Jon McLachlan

Spectacular. Amazing. So, how long have they been doing FinalSpark before you got involved?

Ewelina Kurtys

So, FinalSpark was founded in 2014. It's long-term project. And the founders, Fred Jordan and Martin Kutter, they are entrepreneurs in Switzerland, and they have background in applied mathematics and engineering. So, they are more on this side, on this engineering side, let's say. And they wanted to build thinking machine. This is a dream of many engineers, and long before ChatGPT people were also dreaming about some kind of AI system which, where you could have a conversation, for example. So they did a lot of fundamental research in artificial intelligence, in digital, but what they realized, that it cost a lot to make a great models, and actually that's maybe not the best race for a small independent startup. So they realized that if they want to make a difference, they have to be more disruptive, they have to figure out something more innovative. So what they did, they started consider other option than silicon, and our first employee had some experience already with living neurons. So they said, okay, maybe let's try living neurons, let's try to program them. And yes, this is how it started. They had to learn biology from the scratch. Today we have real biologist also in the team. So today it's really interdisciplinary project, where you combine engineering and biology to make hybrid system, where you have living neurons to process information, but there is also a lot of electronics still in our setup, of course, because neurons are interfaced with electronic system, and we try to program them in such a way like we would program a [computer].

Jon McLachlan

Wow. Did you name the programming language or it's still too early for that?

Ewelina Kurtys

No, for the moment we use Python programming language, and basically how it looks, you run experiments, everything on your computer. So everything in our lab is connected to the computer, and you write a code in Python, and you can execute experiments on living neurons. You can send them electrical signals. You can measure the response, and you can also send them some chemical signals, because neurons understand this two language, let's say, those two languages of chemical and electrical signals. And yes, for the moment we use Python, and it's too early, way too early to talk about separate language, but definitely we will need new way of programming, something totally different for neurons, because they work in a different way than logic gates in silicon.

Jon McLachlan

I imagine, like, because you have essentially, like, neurons, and neurons are firing, and neurons are electrical, but they're also chemical, like you mentioned.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes.

Jon McLachlan

And I bet, is it much more like, today computers are digital, right? The signal is there, the signal is not there, like, the one is there or the zero is there? It's not like a mix of both. At least not in traditional computing. So how do you represent data using biology?

Ewelina Kurtys

No, this is actually really important question. For the moment, this is just, I would say, data science and mathematics. You have to figure out some patterns in the data. That's what we are trying to do.

Jon McLachlan

Is it analog?

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes. The neuronal signal are analog, but they are transformed through analog to digital converter to the digital data, because everything is further analyzed by computer.

Jon McLachlan

Incredible. And you talk about doing experiments, and so it feels like you set up initial state, and then you let it run, and then you do it again and again and again and again.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes, absolutely. And the whole idea is to figure out how to stimulate neurons with electrical signals in such a way that we can have some meaningful communication, input and output, and analyze the data.

Jon McLachlan

Do you see a lot of overlap between your work and the sorts of things that Elon Musk does with that Neuralink technology, or maybe...

Ewelina Kurtys

Well, it's somehow related. What they do is bit different, because they want to put electrodes in the brain, they want to interact with the human brain, which is different thing.

Jon McLachlan

The human brain, which is very different maybe than what you're doing. Yeah.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes. Because, you know, like for example, they want to make it possible that you remotely open, I don't know, the car doors just by thinking. So this is interaction with your brain, and we do not do this. We actually only use the building blocks of human brain, which are living neurons, but we do not interact with human brain, and we just build in the lab a different structure than brain. So that's actually something totally different. However, the algorithm which we will develop on how to interact with neurons might be used by companies like Neuralink, for example. They could potentially be used maybe to interact with brain, but that's not our objective.

Jon McLachlan

I see. I see. So where do the neurons come from that you interact with your computer?

Ewelina Kurtys

Neurons come from stem cells, and stem cells come from human skin. You can buy such a stem cells commercially. So this is quite established process which is often used in biomedical research, and we just copy what biologists are doing.

Jon McLachlan

I'm curious, like, how far into the future do you... It's just too early to predict anything, but if you were given, like, the opportunity to predict, would you say, like, okay, this could make it into maybe a data center at some point, and 10 years and 20 and five, and any of those are possibilities, or...

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes, actually we aim to build a bio server, a huge computer which will be available remotely, the same way as cloud computing today, and we imagine this will be done in 10 years, but of course it's a long-term project.

Jon McLachlan

It's hard to predict.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes, it's hard to predict.

Jon McLachlan

So tell me, tell us about, share if you can share about, like, the capital. Are there investors? Is there VC backing this? This sounds like a very prime deep tech investment.

Ewelina Kurtys

So for the moment we are self-funded by the founders. We consider accepting some external investment. We talk to investors. So we seek 50 million Swiss francs, which is around $50 million, or maybe a little bit less, for next 10 years of development. So yes, that's the financing.

Jon McLachlan

Wow. And so I know that there are VCs out there that consider deep tech. What sort of questions do you guys get, like, when you have those discussions with those investors?

Ewelina Kurtys

Well, we get a lot of questions about everything. The future, the present of course, what is the status of technology, how it works, how it will look like at the end. But what is the biggest challenge is that the timeline, because usually many investors would like to see the results very quickly. But this is not a quick project. Although we make already some revenue, because our laboratory is available remotely, and scientists from all over the world can access our lab, and they can do experiments remotely on living neurons. So we already generate some revenue, but of course that's not the final product, and the final product is ready in 10 years. So for many investors is big challenge.

Jon McLachlan

Yeah. Well, that's nice that there's actually a little bit of revenue that comes in from the, making it available and providing experiments as a service, is what it sounds like.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes, that's good.

Jon McLachlan

You have to put food on the table, you know, as founders and advisers, like, we have to do something to sustain ourselves, you know. Did the founders have previous exits where they had a lot of capital and they can put real skin in the game?

Ewelina Kurtys

No, actually they have another company, which they still own and which is profitable, and this is how they finance.

Jon McLachlan

Do you need a battery? I guess you would need the battery for the traditional piece of the computer.

Ewelina Kurtys

Well, yes, and also, you know, in biology I wouldn't say it's battery, but living cells always need food and water. So there are some special system in the lab. You have to keep them in the right temperature. You have to feed them. They always are in a special liquid, which is called medium, in the lab. So yes, there are also some requirements, but yes, with maybe it's a bit different than with an electronic system where you need a battery. Yes.

Jon McLachlan

Wow. This is, that's very interesting. I'm having, like, images of that scene from the Matrix where Neo wakes up and he's in the goo and he has all the tubes and stuff. Maybe not too different from that. Maybe much smaller and more controlled. It's more sane. Help us see the legacy. If you look into the future and all of this works out and the vision becomes reality, like, what legacy would you like to leave?

Ewelina Kurtys

Oh my god, I'm not really thinking so much about this. I think we just try to make a world a better place. That's all. Hopefully for the future will be easier.

Jon McLachlan

So we have a lot of entrepreneurs that tune in to our show. And this is maybe a little bit of a leading question, but as you're going through the lab and as you get a very up-close view of what's happening in biocomputing, are there any problems that you see that come up where, you know, maybe they're interesting side quests, or you would actually pay money to a company if a company existed to solve this one problem? And are there any open problems that just are not your focus at FinalSpark, but you just wish someone would just go out and solve? Please, already, just, like, solve this problem. It's such a painful problem. Oh, I bump into this toil every day and...

Ewelina Kurtys

If I would have such a problem, I would set up a company and do this.

Jon McLachlan

Okay, that's fair. That is fair.

Ewelina Kurtys

I think it's something what we all are searching for, and I think today it's really difficult, because we have so many tools. It's so easy to do stuff actually now, but searching the right problem to solve is, I would say, one of the biggest challenge in life.

Jon McLachlan

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So, another question that has to do with time, but this one, instead of going forward in time, maybe we go backwards in time, if you allow me for a moment. If you had an opportunity to go back in time and meet your younger self, would you take that opportunity? And if you would, what would you, would you have any advice for yourself?

Ewelina Kurtys

Sure. Of course, I would have a lot of advices, because I'm hopefully wiser today than in the past. And I think generally I would advise myself to be more confident, for sure. Because when I was younger, I was not sure about anything. Today I'm still not sure about things around me, but I am sure about myself. That's one short thing, and yes, that would be the key message which I would send to myself.

Jon McLachlan

That's a beautiful message. Yeah. No, thank you. I really appreciate that. Why did you get your PhD?

Ewelina Kurtys

Because I always wanted to be a scientist, since I learned that such an option exists, and actually I always wanted to take part in some interesting conversations. I wanted to do something interesting, and I believe that will open me the door, and actually did, I would say, did, because also after I moved to industry, I think I have access, possibility to work on really cool projects, because when you are a scientist you can do a little bit crazy stuff. You don't have to be so standard. So that was my main motivation, and just because I like also just to, how do you say this? I like to teasing my brain, you know, just to have some, something to, some problem to solve.

Jon McLachlan

That's beautiful. Yeah. To have something for it to chew on every once in a while, you know. That's cool. I enjoy that. Well, perhaps you'd like to leave our listeners with any final words of wisdom.

Ewelina Kurtys

I don't know if wisdom, but I would definitely like to leave the listeners with a final message, that if they would like to know more about biocomputers, the future of computing, they should check our website, finalspark.com. That's, I think, really interesting. We have a lot of materials, the topic is exciting, and it can be discussed from engineering point of view, from scientific point of view, or also philosophical. So I think everyone can find some angle why biocomputing might be interesting for him or her.

Jon McLachlan

It's amazing. I haven't even considered the philosophical point of view of, like, biological and computing. I suppose if you can turn a bunch of cells that are a neuron into a computer, it kind of begs the question, like, what's the difference between that and a human?

Ewelina Kurtys

Oh, I think there is huge difference, because we just using building blocks of brain, which are neurons. So it's far away from how brain is structured and everything. But for some people look similar.

Jon McLachlan

An uncomfortable similarity perhaps for some.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yes. So that's maybe...

Jon McLachlan

One has a soul.

Ewelina Kurtys

Yeah. Exactly. Or philosophy. Yeah. In general.

Jon McLachlan

Perfect. Well, thank you so much. It's been an absolute amazing conversation.

Ewelina Kurtys

Thank you, too.

Jon McLachlan

No, all the gratitude in the world. It's always impressive, and I'm always delighted to hear about some of the amazing changes that are coming, that smart people, people much smarter than I am, are just slugging through and working through, and to imagine a future where that will ripple through everything, including the security community, where there will be cheap and plentiful AI and compute and [neural nets], and how it's actually not competing at all with what's coming in terms of quantum. So, I'm not sure what we're going to do with all of this compute once it gets here. We'll leave that to the future. We'll leave that to all of the listeners, and thank you to all of the listeners as well for tuning in to another episode of The Security Podcast of Silicon Valley.

Ewelina Kurtys

Thank you so much.

Jon McLachlan

Thank you. Thank you. This has been a YSecurity production. Thank you everyone.

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FAQ

Questions this episode answers

Who is Ewelina Kurtys?
Dr. Ewelina Kurtys is a strategic advisor at FinalSpark, the Swiss company trying to build computers out of living neurons, and the founder and chief executive of Ekai, her consulting company in the United Kingdom. She has a doctorate in neuroscience, worked as a postdoctoral researcher at King's College London, and then moved into medical imaging and commercial applications of artificial intelligence. She is a co-author of FinalSpark's 2024 Neuroplatform paper.
What is biocomputing?
In FinalSpark's version of biocomputing, the computer is built out of living neurons instead of silicon. Ewelina Kurtys says the neurons come from stem cells, the stem cells come from human skin, and you can buy such stem cells commercially. Everything in the lab is interfaced with electronics, and the team sends the neurons electrical and chemical signals and measures their response. FinalSpark's mission is a biocomputer that uses 1 million times less energy than silicon.
How far along is FinalSpark's biocomputer?
It is early. When Jon McLachlan recorded this, Ewelina Kurtys said FinalSpark had managed to store 1 bit of information in living neurons, and she expects a final product to take another 10 years. Neurons encode information so differently from silicon that the programming has to be worked out from scratch.
How do you program living neurons?
For now, with Python. Ewelina Kurtys says everything in FinalSpark's lab is connected to a computer, and the team writes Python to send neurons electrical and chemical signals and measure the response. The neuronal signal is analog, and an analog to digital converter turns it into data that a computer analyzes. She thinks it is way too early to talk about a separate programming language, and she is sure neurons will need a new way of programming.
Is biocomputing competing with quantum computing?
Ewelina Kurtys doesn't think so. She says she only compared them because both are new hardware, and she expects different applications. Quantum is very fast and probably good for cryptography, she says, adding that she isn't an expert there, while biocomputers are slower and good at complex operations, maybe generative artificial intelligence. She believes many kinds of hardware will end up complementary.
How will quantum computing affect security?
Jon McLachlan expects quantum computing to have a huge impact on the security community because of what it does to cryptography. The traditional asymmetric key algorithms go out the window once there is a powerful enough quantum computer. The replacement standards exist, and the practical first step for a company is a list of where its product uses public-key cryptography and which data has to stay secret longest.
Will biocomputers change cybersecurity?
Ewelina Kurtys says it is too early to tell, and she calls it a very long perspective. At least for now, everything in FinalSpark's lab is interfaced with silicon, so the outer layer is silicon or electronics. She thinks maybe not so many things change from the security perspective, because the system will always have that silicon layer outside.
How did FinalSpark start?
FinalSpark was founded in 2014 by Fred Jordan and Martin Kutter, entrepreneurs in Switzerland with backgrounds in applied mathematics and engineering who wanted to build a thinking machine. Ewelina Kurtys says they did a lot of fundamental research in digital artificial intelligence before realizing that great models cost a lot to make, and that competing there maybe wasn't the best choice for a small independent startup. Their first employee had some experience with living neurons, so they tried to program those, and they had to learn biology from scratch.
Where do the neurons in a biocomputer come from?
Ewelina Kurtys says the neurons come from stem cells and the stem cells come from human skin. Such stem cells can be bought commercially, the process is established and often used in biomedical research, and FinalSpark copies what biologists do. The living cells need food and water, the right temperature, and a special liquid the lab calls medium.
How does FinalSpark make money before its final product?
Ewelina Kurtys says FinalSpark already makes some revenue because its laboratory is available remotely, so scientists from all over the world can access it and run experiments on living neurons. It isn't the final product, which she expects in about 10 years, and she says that long timeline is the biggest challenge in conversations with investors.
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